Personal Brand Story and Conversion copywriting,
with Reme Mancera and Mimi Zhou

 Hello, welcome to Intersection Chats. I am Reme Mancera. I am a personal brand story strategist. I am delighted to be here today with Mimi. So, and thank you for being here. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Please, uh, tell us a bit about the who you are, what you do. So I am a conversion copywriter for coaches and course creators, and as a copywriter, my big thing is doing customer research.

So I love diving into surveys and interviews, anything with what’s called voice of customer to understand where audiences are coming from so that when I write the copy, nothing is ever made up. Nice. So yeah, really excited about this conversation today and, and see, uh, the points of connection between our, uh, topics.

So personal brand story and conversion copywriting. So let’s start by, in your experience, how do you think these two topics connect? What is, how they affect to each other? So, okay. So overall I think that they are very connected. So, um, so I write both web copy and emails, and I thought, because I saw that you had an email strategist already, I thought I would keep my answers here today more towards web copy.

Mm-hmm. Um, so your audience can get those insights and not just, you know, things they might’ve heard before already. So from a web copy perspective, personal brand story really comes into play in the about section of pages. So that’s usually if you have like a homepage or a sales page, it’s usually further down the page.

It’s after the offer’s been introduced, um, and there’s like a little about section and often the headline is something like, hi, I am Mimi, or I am Reme. Um. Which is, which is fine, but there are better, there are different headline options you can use and I can go into that today too. Um, so yeah, definitely in those sections, that is where I would say personal brand story really becomes featured.

It’s really important. Um, and also on about pages themselves. These are sections where you really wanna highlight parts of your background that, that resonate with your ideal clients and that make you the obvious choice. So, so for example, I worked on a homepage for a health coach and physical trainer in the Bay Area where I am.

Um, his name is Darren Moore. His. His, uh, business is between the ears, so you can go look him up and check him out. And so, um, so I already mentioned I’m really big on customer research as a copywriter. So the first thing I did when we started our engagement was I interviewed his clients. I, I wanted to understand more where they were coming from, what their point of view was, and I discovered that.

Um, that they really appreciated that he’s a member of the L-G-B-T-Q community and he has a more textured background, meaning, you know, he’s lived a little, he’s not like a 20-year-old health coach. You know, where if you are, if you are his ideal audience, you’re like midlife, you’re a working professional, you know, you wanna know that you’re working with someone who’s li lived a little, has had his own struggles and overcame them.

Um. So none of these details were on his homepage, and part of what I did was rework his bio, that that about section that I mentioned, so that it mentioned that he’s part of the L-G-B-T-Q community, that he had struggled with some stuff when he was younger and that eventually he found aerobic dance that helped him lay the foundation for, um, for his health so that he, at 40, when he was diagnosed with ms, he could.

Manage it without medication. Like this is all really important things. If you’re a midlife professional, you just, you just wanna know, right? You don’t wanna. Necessarily be like, I don’t know, are you like 20 years old? Are you just gonna tell me that I need to eat healthy and like do the things that I can’t actually do for where I am?

Um, yeah. So that is how I featured his personal story on the homepage. As a result of our work, um, we actually doubled his quarter, one earnings year to year. So that was really cool. And I do think that adding his personal story like upfront and center, because we found that it was important from the client interviews had an impact on that.

So that’s one example of how personal story, um, affects conversion, copywriting, and affects your results. Hmm. Yeah, and I love that example, uh, because it’s like it’s showing how when you provide context. About who you are, why you do the work that you do. Mm-hmm. Why it’s important for you to work with a certain group of people.

Mm-hmm. All of that. You can use your personal stories to highlight that and that be, build that connection with the people and that trust factor. Uh, when you are like starting knowing someone, uh, um, as a consumer or as a potential customer, you are trying to decide if that person is the right fit for you or not.

So it’s like providing stories and using storytelling in that context is like, it’s really interesting to, to build that multidimensional person. It’s not just, we are just the professional. There is more aspects that are important, like our values, our experiences and, and all that. So yeah, I love that, that example.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So the idea of, uh, customer research that you mentioned already is something really interesting to me because the way that they approach personal brand story is like instead of looking for one big story, I help my clients to identify 10 meaningful moments from their journey.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And each of them is connected to a key factor of what they offer and the basic. Like foundation to start identifying those moments is having clarity in which is the, the audience that you are trying to reach out. Mm-hmm. And what is the offer or the, the pro, the value proposition that you have.

Mm-hmm. So having that clear then. Let’s analyze your, your journey and see which of the, the moments you can use to, to highlight the value, to highlight the benefits, uh, of what you offer. So to me, it’s really important to have clarity on who is your audience. So that’s why I love your approach of customer research and having clarity on what are they looking for and how.

Yeah. How is the, the, they are looking for solutions for their problems. So I would love to go a bit more into, into that, uh, topic, if it’s okay for you, about how is, like in terms of when you are like starting working in a project, how, how is your process to, to identify, okay, how I look for, for this information about the customer is interviews or there are other options there.

Yeah. Okay. So that’s a fantastic question. Um, so, so let’s back up to the very beginning. So my very first step is actually to determine what the client, what the goal of the research is because you don’t, you don’t wanna just do interviews. Like, you can ask so many questions on an interview, like you could ask me so many questions right now.

We’re not just gonna like, talk about anything, right? Um, so once we determine that the goal is usually. Like some kind of business goal. Like is it true that people of this category, of this, you know, audience want X, Y, and Z out of role? Something, you know, that’s just an example. Um, and then it, it, well, it kind of depends on the package that I’m doing, but you can do interviews, you can do surveys, and you can do review mining.

Those are kind of the, the three most common things that I do. Ideally, you would do a little bit of each, because that way you can check for bias. So like, for example, surveys give you breath. So if you, you have like. You don’t even need to have a huge audience to do a survey because even if you have 50 people, you’re not gonna interview all of ’em.

Right? Yeah. Like that’s who has the time. Um. Yeah, so surveys give you breath, and depending on the goal of the research, I usually like to do like an eight to 10 question survey, and so that gives me some information. And usually what what I like to do is I look at the survey answers, I analyze them. Um, I, I do this process.

It’s like formally, it’s called One Hot Encoding, but you just break down the, the different answers into categories so you can get a numerical idea of, um, like someone said, you know, this topic the most instead of you’re just reading it. Um, so for example, I once asked, I did a survey for myself, so I asked business owners what their most common problem was.

And if you just read the answers, you would. You would think it was time because people say that a lot. I don’t have enough time. But if you break it down into categories, it was related to marketing. Because anything. And, but, but that’s a lot of things, right? It’s like emails, web copy, personal brand, story content.

Um, so I look at the data, I, I analyze it numerically so I don’t just go off of an impression. Mm-hmm. And then I like to look at the, the answers and then I decide. Like three to five people I’m going to interview. ’cause I’m like, these answers sort of stick out to me and I want to know more. And that’s how I do it.

And I build my interviews around, um, their survey answers because I already have some information, right? So then I’m like, what can I ask them to get me closer to the research goal that I agreed upon with the client in the interviews? Um. So that’s what I do. But you don’t have to do, honestly, it’s like the thing that frustrates me about customer research is that it’s not, it doesn’t have to be that complicated.

It’s just like determine a goal. Um, if you don’t want, if you don’t know how to do a, you don’t feel confident doing a survey. Just ask like three people if you can interview them. Get on a call and just have a conversation. Make sure you record it because you’re not gonna be right. You’re not gonna be able to write everything down and you wanna be like in the moment, so you can, you don’t wanna be worried about writing stuff down.

Yeah. Um, and that will, like, like people do this thing, there’s like this thing where it’s like, fill out your ideal client worksheet, but you’re just in your head for that, right? It’s like, no, actually talk to your ideal client, like they will be happy to talk to you. It’s really easy, just ask people for 20 minutes of their time.

You don’t have to give them anything. You can if you want. You don’t have to. Um, and people are generally happy to talk about themselves and help you out. Hmm. Yeah. I, I like how you make it, like you simplify for people to actually get to do it, because it’s like, yeah, there is. Several ways. There are more complicated ways, but if you want to go to, okay, you want to do something and maybe your audience not big, you still have the possibility to have conversations with them, and it is like the basic way of listening to them and then analyze, okay, how has being this conversation if there is some patterns that.

You can, uh, get from there. And I know that you have an academic back, uh, research background, so you are really knowledgeable into the research. Uh, but I love how you make it easy for people to actually put into action by themselves. Um. Something that I am really, uh, I, the first time that I heard about this, um, I get really curious, I remember when you mentioned this before, this, uh, idea of review mining.

Mm-hmm. And this was something that I haven’t heard before in this, in those terms. And I read, I got, uh, really curious. So, uh, can you tell us a bit more about what, what do, what do you mean with review mining? Yeah, yeah, of course. So, um, so review mining is, is probably the easiest form of customer research because with what I just talked about with the survey and interview, you have to write the survey, you have to conduct the interview.

Review mining is basically looking at a few businesses, so again, maybe like two or three. Maybe two to four, um, that, that solve the same problem you do. So, for example, for me, I would be looking for other conversion copywriters who, um, focus on my niche. And what you really want is you wanna get a nice page of testimonials.

That’s one of those testimonial pages where you just have like testimonials all down the page. Sometimes you can find that on Yelp. Which is also very useful. Like for some businesses there are a lot of Yelp reviews, especially product ones. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. And sometimes there are reviews or they’re like, you can also mine Reddit forums.

I guess there aren’t formal reviews, but people say all sorts of things on Reddit. So, so what you, the easiest way to do review mining is you look, you read the reviews, right? Like you have to read them. That’s your voice of customer. That which is what? Your audience, your ideal clients or customers are saying, so you don’t, again, you don’t have to make things up like, oh, this is what I think the problem is.

Um, if you read these reviews and you look for their pains and their desires, you will see what it is that they want and it’s easier. To see than it is to make up. So like to come up with yourself. Um, so the example I usually use has to do, it’s, it’s for a health coach and I have this one Yelp page. I always demo it.

But the things that come up are that like people have sibo, which is a, a gut condition. So they’re like the physical conditions, but another pain. Is that people go to different doctors and they get shuttle from like one MD to another and they lose hope, right? They’re like, no one can solve this problem.

And I feel like I’m the one person in the world with something that no one can fix. So that’s an emotional pain that is very painful if you feel that you cannot, you have a health condition and nothing helps. If you’ve seen all these experts in formal, um, offices. Um, so, so the flip side of kind of in, in that vein of reviews is that they want someone who will take the time.

So that is really important. You mentioned value proposition for your offer earlier. Right? So then that becomes something you wanna highlight. Like you are not a practitioner who just gets people in and gives them a, a, a templated plan. And leaves, right. Without answering questions. You wanna highlight that in your value proposition, that people like, that you take the time to get to know them and all of your, and all of their habits.

’cause like, nutrition, sleep, you know, exercise. It’s all, it’s all related. Right? So, um, so that’s an example off the top of my head, but the basics are that you look for pages of testimonials or reviews from PE from what’s called competitive alternatives. People who do the same thing you do and you’re looking at them, you’re looking at the voice of customer to see what your shared ideal audience is.

Pains and desires are in their own words, so you don’t have to just sit there and come up with them yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I like specifically this idea of using their words because they, they, when they see that in your content, they, they’ll feel related and they, they’ll feel like you listen to them and you know, their, their problems or their situations.

Right. And something that is really interesting to me of what you said is like looking for the emotions. Because that connect a hundred percent with the storytelling because of course when they, you see the patterns and there are maybe an emotion that they feel like this idea of people, when I go to the doctor, they are not listening to me and they are just, uh, giving me, uh, one.

Fits all formula. Mm-hmm. Or a kako formula. So then it’s like I would invite people to go to their personal journey and identify moments where they were feeling like that. Mm-hmm. That a similar emotion where they were in that situation, or maybe they were like. Someone in their, like the people that they care about, some were in that situation and they were in that position, like they were not able to help.

Mm-hmm. I have seen that, for example, with people that now I, they are doing some kind of work that is related to what they live in their childhood, maybe their families and things like that, and how they were not. Ready in that moment to, to, to address those situation because they were, uh, like children and small.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, but they, they saw the importance of, that. They saw the relevance or how maybe their, their parents were not taking care in a, in a way that. They need it or, or listen in the way that they need it and how that’s, it’s a, uh, a personal story that can relate to why they do what they do, why they are working with that, and why they really understand that feelings, because those emotion has been in their own experience or they have been close to someone else.

Even can be a client, can be a, a. Not necessarily in the childhood, but in a previous back, uh, work experience, in academic background, anything, any other situation. But somehow you can relate to those emotions. So that’s a way to look. In their reviews, have information about your customers, and then look in your personal stories and identify some that could be valuable for you to use as a bridge to talk about that topic and the way that you do things in a different approach.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I love how you said that. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, I think the, uh, overlap of conversion copy and personal brand story, it’s exactly as you said. Um, ’cause ’cause everyone has a lot in their background. Um, but you don’t need to tell all of it, right? It’s just, uh. Figuring out what you, what is important to your ideal audience that you have in your background that can kind of overlap and merge.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and sometimes that’s a, a dif really difficult part, identifying which stories to share. And, and because I usually, I work with, I have identified two group, group of people. Like one of them, they feel they don’t have an epic story to share. And then the other group of people that I work with, they feel they have so many stories, they don’t know which one to choose.

Uhhuh. Yeah. That’s, and sometimes there are people with both of the situation because they, they have a lot of little stories, but they don’t feel like they have a big one to share. Mm-hmm. So it can be even the, the both of the groups, but then it is like, you don’t need. A big traumatic story that if that has happened, okay, it’s part of your life.

It’s not that it’s not sure, but it’s like how to choose those stories is looking for why they are meaningful to you and how they are connected to that element of your offer that you want to highlight to that research that you have done about your customers and how you want them to understand that, okay, this why I work around this, uh, topic.

This why. Important to me. These are my values, this is my approach. And then the person has more information about who you are and about why you might be the, the fit for, for what they need. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I know that you mentioned before the idea of headlines and how we can use, uh, our personal brand story in the headlines.

I would love to, to go, uh, now a bit about that topic because, because I feel that this is interesting and also it’s really like, um, practical. So I love when, when it’s something like you can’t start. Using or putting into action just after, um, getting to listen to it. So I would love for, for you to share with us how is the approach that you take around using conversion copy in the headlines specifically.

Oh, sure. Yeah. So, um, so I mentioned earlier a lot of about sections on the page. The headline is something like, hi, I’m Mimi, right. Or, hi, I’m Reme. Um, that’s fine. That’s okay. I’m not saying you have to like burn it all down, but I do find that there are, you know, there, the headline is such an important part of the page, right?

Yeah. It’s, it’s bigger than the body copy. If someone is scrolling on your webpage, they are much more likely to read the headline. There’s, there’s a, David Ogilvy once said, like, like, you spend like. 80 cents of your dollar is spent on the headline when you pay for a copyright or something like, ’cause 80% of people are more likely to read the headline.

Um, who knows if that’s true? But anyway, the headline is, is really important. It is actually because it’s larger. It’s usually in like H two size. People are more likely to read it. So instead of a generic headline like, hi, I am Mimi. Um, there are a lot of different ways you can introduce your about section.

So I actually, I have three different ways I can share. Two are formulas and one is more of a freeform. So, so let me share them. Yeah. So one of my favorite headline formulas to introduce the about section, um, I’m gonna read you the formula, but then I’ll give you example so it makes sense. Perfect. So the formula is offer, so that’s your offer.

The name of your program or whatever was created by a title, tired of Pain points. Okay, so examples. Um, the first one is for a program called Teach Music Online by Carly Walton. This, this is one of my clients. These are all real headlines in the world mm-hmm. That I’ve written. Um, shared with permission.

Nice. So. Teach music online was created by someone tired of watching music. Teachers struggle to reach the freedom that they want, so that expresses it’s, it’s not just like, hi, I am Carly, which like, okay, but it tells you what the program is. Why someone created it and sort of what the promise is. ’cause the, the promise of the program is to help, um, music teachers pivot online.

Mm-hmm. Um, another example using that same formula. Is this is for Mia Moran of, um, plan Simple. Her program is called Flow 365. So the, the headline is Flow 365 was created by a creator, coach and mom of three who realized that it never gets easier. So that is, again, it’s kind of, it’s not just like, hi, I’m Mia.

It’s like, okay, so this is who I am. Right? Like, creator, coach, mom of three. That tells you a lot right there. Yeah. Um, who realize that it never gets easier and the, the program is about helping women who have a lot on their plates. Prioritize it so their own ambitions and goals don’t just get lost in sort of the day-to-day of like family life and everything.

And so it kind of speaks to, it tells a little story in that headline and that’s, it’s just really important because if more people are reading those headlines, you want them to be memorable. Yeah. Right. So you want them to, to walk away with a little bit of like, oh, that, that’s interesting. That sticks there and that, that is really the key to selling.

It’s, it’s tapping into the, the reader’s imagination and their mind, and that’s what these headlines try to do. So again, so that formula is offer was created by title, tired of pain points. Mm-hmm. A second formula that you can use. Um, so I’m gonna read you the formula again. Okay. As someone who has struggled with pain point, I know it’s possible for you to desire.

Hmm. Okay. So example, this is from Darren Moore, the health coach I mentioned earlier. So as someone who struggled with this health, I know it’s possible for you to feel stronger, more capable, and more balanced in your body. Right. So again, that tells you, um, you know, he struggled, which is, which is something we wanted to bring out.

Um, and then the, the desires chosen, I know it’s possible for you to feel stronger, more capable, and more balanced. Those are what the ideal client wants. Mm-hmm. So the headline isn’t just, hi, I am Darren. It’s, it’s, it tells a little story in of itself. Mm-hmm. Nice. Yeah, so that’s option two. As someone who has struggled with pain point, I know it’s possible for you to desire.

Mm-hmm. And then this is kind of my favorite, this is my favorite kind of headline ’cause it’s not a formula. Nice. But, um. My, one of my favorite things to do when I think about headlines is just looking at the voice of customer. So whether you have surveys or interviews or you’ve done a little bit of review mining.

Review mining, you have to be a little more careful ’cause they are someone else’s words. So you have to mm-hmm. Um, you know, be selective. Yeah. But for one of my clients, her name is Lori Columbo. She is a health coach who wanted to focus on. Um, the fact that she has a national board certification for health and wellness, which is important, like not all health coaches do, it’s a, it’s a prestigious certification in the field.

It, it means something. Um, but when I looked at what her people were saying. One of her clients expressed that she never felt judged with Lori. So that’s like, that’s an emotional thing. You were talking about emotional stories. Right. And I think, I do think there are instances where the emotional stories sort of resonate more than the factual ones.

Right? Like getting a certification is a fact. Yeah. A factual story, but like never feeling judged. Is an emotional story. And so I thought that was really important to bring out. That is part of the value proposition, right? Um, so one of my favorite things to do is just to look at the voice of customer and pull out a headline.

So the headline for her about section is, it won’t make you feel ashamed or embarrassed of anything, promise. And so that tells you what she stands for. That’s a little story right there in of itself. Um, so those are, those are three ways that you can find you, you can, um, tell your personal story in a headline where it’s really important to, to catch that ideal reader’s attention and stay in their memory.

Hmm. Yeah. And this, uh, really interesting how you can do it in a short way. It’s not that you need to develop the whole story in a, in, uh, to, to use it. You can use it in a really short way, and even sometimes it’s a, a way to create a loop and curiosity that you later, like, um. Articulate and explain better, but you are mentioning, or maybe it’s a, um, connection of something that you mentioned before and it’s like, um, a re a way to remember to make them remember about that specific thing that you want to highlight.

And especially this idea of using the voice of customer to build that headlines. I feel that’s really in. Yeah, it’s like really, uh, effective in my opinion because it’s like, as you say, and I, I know that for a fact for myself. When I am, uh, checking a website, the first time that I will open it, I will just scanning headlines, looking at the images and making myself first impression.

And then maybe I will read some specific sections or go back to the beginning and read back again. But the first. Time that I go, I will scroll, uh, down the page. I will not start like reading every sentence there, that’s for sure. I don’t think have ever happened to me. So yeah, really interesting how you can be really intentional, um, in your headlines because you know that that’s, uh, a piece that people will pay attention and how you can incorporate that.

Those elements of connection and. Elements that are showing what makes you different and elements that shows how your approach is unique, I feel that can be a powerful way to use those headline. So thank you for sharing those, uh, examples. Um, and specific. Ways to build those headlines because I, I know that people can now go and try to, to think about their own cases and see how they can reformulate or, or adding a bit of more of this, uh, different angle.

Yeah, sure, sure. I love talking about headlines. I think headlines are so, um, it’s not just they’re important, but you can do so much with them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nice. Okay, so before we wrap up, uh, I, I dunno if we haven’t mentioned something specific that you think is important for us to, to highlight, um, and maybe we haven’t covered and it’s something that you would like to mention before we finish.

I think the, the, well, the one, the thing that stands out from what you said of your work is that you try to find 10 connectors. Right. So I like that. Yeah. So, yeah, I just, yeah, I wanted to, um, touch on that quickly because, um. Because when I think about conversion copy, so I’ve talked about factual stories and emotional stories, and they’re both important.

Like it’s, it maybe it is important that someone has a certain certification, right? Yeah. Um, but you can’t forget the emotional ones. So I, so what I wanted to ask you is like, of the 10, do you have different categories? Like that? Or do you Yeah, so that’s what I’m curious about. Yeah, so there are different categories.

Um, for example, there are some that are a hundred percent related to the audience. The solution that you provide, I like to talk about also like how you do, are. You have a unique approach and what is that unique approach? Mm-hmm. And how you have some story that can highlight that. I have, uh, one categories related to, uh, your values.

What are your main values? That’s another category. There are categories that is related to the person’s lives, so it’s like one that is related to. Past, uh mm-hmm. Work background, uh, to your academic, to a pivotal moment in your life. So there are some that are related to your. Journey as a mm-hmm.

Different parts of your life. Yeah. And there are others that are a hundred percent related to the offer. But anyway, each of those, they have both of them. That they have an element that is a specific, meaningful moment from your journey. And the other element is something related to your way of working to, to your value.

And I visually, I represent them as two circles. And they have in the middle like a diagram of event where you have, they’re connecting and it’s like, that’s why it’s the story connector. You, you know, why you are sharing that story because you know that this related to that specific factor that you want to highlight.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, that’s so fascinating. Thank you. Yeah. I, I, I really like, uh, because I like, um, strategic approach to things, right? Yeah. And to me. And one thing that they saw is how people were like, they were hesitant about sharing some part their stories because they didn’t know why it will be relevant for their audience or will be relevant for their business.

So to me, when you know the reason why you are sharing the story, you have more clarity. So you will do with. Confidence and you are really sure about why you are doing that. So I feel that’s like a way to, to get control and power over your, how you are using your stories. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So thank you. To finish this, I always ask this question about, uh, how you’ll describe the combination of personal brand story and conversion copywriting in a few words. Sure. Okay, so the first word that comes to me is results. Um, because when you do conversion copyright, if you start with the customer research and you’re actually talking to your ideal audience, not just like sitting there alone, being like, I wonder what they think, but just ask people what they think when you do that, right, and that’s the foundation that brings you business results.

Hmm. Um, the second word is confidence, which you touched upon already. I really love that. I really do think if you know exactly like you said, I mean, if you know the parts of your story to share and you know that they’ll resonate, then you feel more confident. Sharing them. Right? Because you don’t, it doesn’t mean you have to share everything from your background ever.

Um, so you don’t have to worry about that. It’s, it’s a, it’s a selected curation and I think that really does bring confidence, and confidence helps with visibility. So. Kind of ties back to results. ’cause you, most people need to be visible to get the results they want. Yeah. Um, and the third word is growth.

Because when you getting, when you’re getting the kind of results that you want and you feel confident in your own story and in sharing it, you, you grow, not just, not just. In your business, but personally, ’cause I think, I think owning your story is really important and being able to tell it. Even not for like marketing purposes, it’s just who you are and like, yeah.

I think that is just so important. So, Hmm. Thank you. And yeah, that thing on that is like, I can see how, uh, a process of. Like exploring your personal brand story and understanding the moments that are meaningful to you. It gives a lot of, uh, like even I have, uh, a client that, uh, the one of my last clients, she was like, even those questions and analyzing what I have been doing and all the things that, it’s like, it’s kind of validating, like, um, yeah.

Right. It’s like I don’t have the clarity maybe at the beginning of, okay, yeah, I know my messaging, I know what I do, I know the results that I get, but somehow I am not sure about how to communicate those or how to incorporate my story in there. I’m feeling that, yeah. This like, okay, yeah, of course I will share this because that will provide a lot of context about who, who I am and what I do.

So yeah, it’s really interesting to see that process of before working on your story and when you have the clarity of how you use your storytelling. So I love that. And for me, I usually also share my, my words. Yeah, I would say that personal brand story and. Conversion copywriting for me, it’s like the combination would be like the effective human connection.

Like using that, not using, but generating that human connection. Yeah. Mm-hmm. In an effective way that will get resolved for your business. So I feel that that can be the, the summary for, for me. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. The connection. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, thank you for being here. I have really enjoyed the conversation and thank you for everyone who has joined or who is watching the replay.

Uh, they can learn more about what we do in our, uh. Links that they are in the description, and also ask any question or mention any, anything that after doing this, also because you have shared specific examples of using headlines, I would love for them to con contact back, um, and share how they are using it or yeah, if they have, uh, sparks and new ideas and so on.

Also, I know that you have used. Your newsletters about, uh, about the topics that you work. Can you tell us a bit about your newsletter please? Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. Um, so my newsletter is called Smarter Customer Research. I started it because a lot of, you see a lot of people say, talk to your customers, but there’s very rarely any follow up with how, so every addition goes into a customer research technique.

So sometimes it’s about like a survey question or sometimes it’s about an interview and I give examples. That I think really bring the points to life. Kind of like how I’ve tried to do in this talk. I’ve, I, I realized somewhere along the way of my business that the examples are really important. ’cause it’s one thing to say something, but it’s another thing to be like, this is the interview question, like, ask this.

Um, so I try to, I try to make it useful and swipeable for people. So if you wanna sign up for that, that will be in the, in the description. Nice. Yeah. So thanks again has been, uh, delightful to, to have you here. Um, yeah. Hope, uh, people get, uh, ideas from our conversation and get to see how they can approach the customer research in a, in a different way.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Reme. It was such a pleasure. Thank you. See you soon. See you soon. Bye.