Personal Brand Story and Main Character Messaging,
with Reme Mancera and Delaney Rietveld

Welcome to intersection chats. Today, we are going to talk about personal brand story and main character messaging and how they are connected to each other. I am delighted to have here Delaney. Thank you, Delaney, for the for accepting this invitation. Welcome to this show.

Hi. Yes. Thanks so much for having me, Reme. I’m so excited to chat with you today. Thank you.

So for those who don’t know me, my name is Reme Mancera. I am a personal brand story strategist and the creator of the 10 story connector framework, which probably we are going to talk about today too. Please, Delaney, tell us who you are and what is your specialization, please. Yes. So I’m Delaney.

I am a website copywriter and messaging strategist. So I’m really excited to dig into where those intersect today and how that can fit into a personal brand. And if you can’t tell from my brand’s name, I really like coffee as well. So if you like caffeine, we’ll probably get along. Nice.

Okay. So I’ll start by, if you can share with us, like, from your experience, what has been, like, the connection, the intersection between personal brand story main character messaging? Yes. So I would say that main character messaging, the framework that I kind of created because I was sick of there not being something that was fitting exactly what I wanted and needed and what my clients seem to be drawn towards, that was really created as, like, a way to kind of bridge the gap between traditional messaging advice and people who are interested in building a personal brand or feel that building a personal brand would be beneficial to them. So there’s definitely a strong element of personal branding work that goes into a framework like main character messaging, but I kind of elaborate on that a bit to cover some of the essential messaging stuff that you need when you’re, you know, trying to really refine messaging for your business, like, you know, positioning authority where you are standing in the lineup of your competition.

But I found that people just kind of needed like, there was a sweet spot that people needed that wasn’t existing, so I made it. Love that. And I feel really connected to that because, the the reason why I started creating my own framework, like, these story connectors were were also because I felt like people, feeling overwhelmed by this idea of one big story. And then it’s okay. Let’s split that into smaller, moments and that less less let’s identify meaningful moments in their journey that they can use to highlight what the what they work to.

So I feel this idea of when you see this gap with the work with clients and you feel like, okay. I need to build something as that fits what I see is a is something that they need. And to me, that’s so connected to the idea that there is not just one size fits fits all formula, and it’s like finding the ways that work for you and your way of working, your approach, with the type of clients that you work with. Yeah. Exactly.

And I feel like like frameworks are such a good place to, start from, and there are so many different frameworks out there. Like, you and I each have our own framework, but I think that is so important to remember is that, you you know, you need to feel comfortable and okay exploring what this might look like on your own. And, yes, that might start with a framework, and there are so many to choose from. It could be yours. It could be mine.

But part of the reason why I felt so drawn to, you know, create this kinda, like, main character energy, it’s such a buzzword these days, but I still love it, is that I feel I think you need to have some of that, like, main character, drive to forge your own path and create something for yourself. 100%. Because it’s like, I I think that is, like, mainstream way of seeing personal brand story specifically where there is this you are the hero. Your client is the hero. You are the guide, and this is the formula, and you need to do this thing this way.

And that was the conversation started for us because it’s like I saw one of your posts talking about this is like, yes, there are more ways. And and and that bring me to, okay. Yeah. Let’s talk about this. I’m really interested to learn more about this main character messaging.

Yes. Oh my gosh. We can talk about that because I’ve got so many words. And first of all, I just wanna say, if you are someone who has done, you know, the hero’s journey type of framework for your brand and your business and that really helped you, I’m not trying to convince you otherwise. I’m not trying to say you should do something else.

But I just kept seeing after, like, doing it for so many clients and taking them through, you know, essentially the hero’s journey for their messaging and such, I kept seeing it not exactly living up to the hype for a lot of brands I was working with. And I think this came down to a couple different things. So first of all, in this day and age, people are not always asking that a brand they work with or a business they work with or, you know, an expert that they hire for something, they’re not always asking that they take this back seat role and only step into the spot of the, like, the Obi Wan Kenobi to their Luke Skywalker and stuff. Like, sometimes they are going to want to get advice from someone who has, you know, stepped into more of that, journey themselves, the the, like, main character journey or, like, something more aspirational and such. And, honestly, I feel like a lot of it just comes down to, like, people might not know why they choose you, but it might come down to your vibes for lack of a better term.

And some people, I think, have really great vibes that they’ve been stifling because they think that they need to take this back seats, like, guide role in their brands, and that’s not the case these days. And I don’t think people are making buying decisions based on, you know, how much of a Obi Wan Kenobi you can be for your clients. Mhmm. Yeah. I think this is really interesting because it’s like yeah.

First of all, if someone is using that and it’s useful for them, brilliant. Go for it. But for some people that feels like, I doesn’t feel right or they they don’t get that. It’s like, yeah. There are, like, so many different approaches.

And the thing that is, like, maybe you have been in that same shoes and you want to share the story from that point. It’s like, I know what I am helping you with because I have been there. I I I maybe I went with trial and errors. I teach myself, and then now I am in a position that I can help you with. So maybe that’s story that you can share in a way that is, like, connecting to your audience so they understand that, yeah, yeah, you really know what I am feeling, how I’m feeling because you already were was there.

Right? Mhmm. So it’s like depending on what is this the the case, depending also what is the what the their audiences is looking for. Because maybe they are looking for someone that is more like in a more leading way and sharing their stories or their messaging in a way that is showing that is going to help them. Because it’s like, okay.

Yeah. I need someone bring me bringing me this lead. So I want to know that from that moment that I am reading the messaging or getting their communication to me. Yeah. Exactly.

And, actually, I feel like I want to call some people out on that gently and lovingly, of course, because I think part of the reason why it can be so appealing to take more of a guide role and be like, oh, no. I’m not the main character. All my clients are the main character. Oh, they’re the they’re the hero. It’s because it feels like less work to not have to, you know, step into the shoes of the person who is going through the trial and error, who is going to be seen making mistakes, who might say some things that don’t always land.

But I think there are too many people, experts and creatives, who really are good leaders, and people need to hear their voice. And they will probably discover that people are a lot more forgiving and accepting of their flaws and that that can actually build a lot of trust. I feel like some people need to realize that as well, that, like, their highest calling and their best positioning in their business is actually being that front and center person, and not taking a back seat. Even though it does feel easier to be like, oh, I’m just I’m just help I’m just a helper for my people, which is great. But some people, they need to be we need to hear their voices.

Yeah. Something that is also one of the reasons why I created the the this way of sharing your story. For me, it’s like you are not just one side of you as a person. So sharing different stories, different moments is helping build that multifaceted person. So there is this perception that is not just one layer.

There are like several layers of your experience. And I work a lot with people that they have so many life experiences that they may have changed a lot of in their careers. And so there are so many stories that they can tell. They don’t know which one is the relevant, the interesting one for that. And that’s why I always go with who is your audience, what is your offer.

And then it’s like from there, let’s identify which stories can be useful for amplifying that benefit of that key factor. So we start with who is the audience and what is the main key factors of what you offer. And then from there, let’s look what stories can be relevant. Here again, the same story, the same moment can be useful for different reasons. And the the approach that you you bring is that kind of, the one that you are interested in.

And maybe you want to highlight your values, or maybe you want to highlight why you work with a certain group of people. Why it’s important for you to work around that. So using your own stories into that, I feel like it’s so valuable for being memorable. And the idea of, as you say, if you are the main character, I feel that that’s also another, element that can bring this idea of being more memorable in the sense of you are sharing, like, your values, your approach. And I feel with that main character, messaging can be a great way for highlighting that as well.

So I I think having this, like, way of helping people understand the context of why you do this work is really interesting to build that connection and that trust that is so important for them to take the neck the next action. Yeah. Definitely. And I wanna branch off of something you said about, like, picking the right stories and seeing how they’re going to resonate. That’s so important to go through that process for all kinds of brands, because, yes, you wanna find the stories and the plot lines that are going to resonate with people, but you also wanna make sure that you’re steering clear of the ones that really are not going to be doing that much for your audience.

And I see this with, you know, personal brands and, you know, larger businesses as well. For example, there was I just worked on a website copy project for, like, a mental health platform, and they had a really amazing story about how they got started and what led them to, create this platform and why they structured things the way they did and why that was so important. And I got so much information from their team about what went into the creation of this brand. But as I was going through their information to create copy and messaging that was really going to resonate with their people, I realized that the the majority of the stories that they were telling me were not going to be super applicable or relevant to people who are just trying to find a therapist, in an easy and stress free way. So great story, great amazing stuff that I you can tell in the feel of the brands that really grounds them in their values and, positions them as a really ethical and caring company.

But spelling out that story directly, you know, on the page, in the content, in the emails and stuff is not the right story that we need to tell their audience in order to get them to feel invested in this brand. Yeah. Again, this idea of you need to check exactly what is the goal that you want to, achieve with this type of content, and maybe that story can be relevant in another format, in another space, maybe in a conversation with someone that does that the right fit for that story. And then it’s like, okay. What are the the ones that I am using that are really strategic in the way that I know why I’m telling this story because I know what I want to highlight and how I want this story to work for me and my business.

Mhmm. I also like how even the same story can be the angle can be different, and you can use the same story in different ways, in different formats. And I work a lot with people that they might have two different audiences because they have an offer that is more one on one and then maybe an offer that is for corporate doing workshop. I I work a lot with service based, businesses. And then it’s like maybe the same story, you can share that, but this different context, different audiences, so you are changing the angle and that factor that you are highlighting.

So maybe even the story can be, good, but you need to refrain, okay, why I’m using this. And I feel like, for example, this is something that I see a lot in emails. I don’t know why, but in emails especially, when they start with story, and I feel like somehow they want to go to a call to action, but doesn’t fit. It’s just they are somehow forcing that into this is relevant to this call to action, but then I don’t feel the connection. It feels like disconnected.

So I I haven’t experienced that much that into websites. But in yeah. LinkedIn post and emails is one of the two places where I feel like people are forcing storytelling here. They don’t know exactly why they are connecting this. They have listening people saying, like, you should use storytelling, but they are forcing that.

I would love, you know, to know your thoughts on this. Yeah. No. The forcing of storytelling is not that’s it’s so painful. And I feel like you can feel it too when they’re like, oh, I feel like I have to share either something super mundane that, like, is supposed to be relevant to my brand or I have to, like, trauma dump on my audience in order to convince them to work with me.

I find that when I’m working with, like, solopreneurs or person more personal brands, really putting their messaging and positioning in a structure or framework provides a lot a lot of relief because you don’t have to put all this pressure on storytelling and doing it right and actually a lot of the things that they might hear from other corners of the Internet. Like, oh, you need to share this or you need to tell a story about this. You actually don’t have to do that for your audience. You don’t have to do anything if you don’t want to. Like, sometimes my clients are telling me, like, crazy, traumatic, wild stories that they feel like they have to share to be honest with their audience and their brands and, like, no.

You don’t you’re you’re not obligated to share, like, all this stuff if you don’t want to. And, actually, depending on which bucket you fall into, that might not be super relevant. So I know there’s there’s so much messaging content out there and a lot of storytelling advice for people who might fall in, like, a coaching space. But is that advice applicable to, like, a web designer? Not really.

A web designer is not gonna have to tell a story about how they were so bad at web design and their first website sucked and blah blah blah, and then they had this transformation moment. Blah blah blah. No. That’s not super relevant to web designers’ work or their audience there, but we can find other things that their audience will be able to relate to and latch on to and kind of put that in, like, a storytelling lens there. Yeah.

I I really like that you bring that up because it’s like this idea of feeling pressure that you need to use storytelling vulnerability, that, like, forcing that into your into your brand. It’s like, it makes sense. Yes. Do it. But if not, you don’t need to do it.

And even if it’s something that for your business makes sense, but you as a person don’t want to share it, don’t share it. You are the one in control. Especially if you are a solopreneur or personal brand, you are the one putting your face out there. It’s like you are the one deciding. And for me, when I work with my clients, it’s like these are in-depth conversations going through their journeys, and they are sharing with me sometimes, experiences that are hard and they but they are not they told me that they are not ready to share this or they prefer to keep it that private, and it’s totally okay.

We don’t know. You don’t need to share any of that. You are the one setting the boundaries. And but boundaries is something that I wanted to ask you because I read one of your, content telling about how you can use your website copy for setting boundaries. And I and I feel that’s something so important, like, how here related to what you want to share or not.

Mhmm. And something that I want to to mention is, like, how in different spaces you might want to share a bit more or less. Share more superficially or go more into depth. And for example, maybe in your website you want to mention something briefly, but then if you are in a sales calls, you want to go deeper and making more details because makes sense for you to create that space of sharing depending on on what’s what you are selling. Right?

But I feel again, you are the one in control, doesn’t need to be in a specific way. You you can decide going deeper or not, and then you are the one deciding if you want to share it at all or not. Mhmm. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. A couple things there, and then I’ll circle back to the the boundaries and website Yeah. Copy thing there. But with, like, how much you share and such, I feel like, this is really overthought by a lot of people, myself included at times. But you can really release the pressure on something like that because people are people will latch on to, a lot more personal details that are kind of mundane, people will latch onto that, like, a lot more than you might think.

For example, my brand is named after coffee, and I post about coffee, and it’s so basic. Like, I am such a basic girl. I just like coffee. And yet, every time I tell someone what my brand name is, they’re like, OMG. I love coffee too.

Oh my gosh. I love the dark roast. Or they’ll be like, oh, I saw this dark roast drink and thought of you today, Delaney. It’s so basic, but it’s still something that people associate with me. So you don’t have to overthink it.

Yeah. Like, feel less And at the same time, you can use it in a way that make people remember of you. Like you said, people are seeing that and they remember. And maybe you can go into what are the flavors of that kind of coffee. Maybe it’s strong.

Maybe it’s like, has certain flavor that is, like, as your brand, as your messaging, you are also helping people to get their specific flavor into their website copy. So at the same time, you can use it in ways that it looks like something simple, but it’s something important to you, and then you can find, like, how we can connect that. And for example, with the web designer, I have one client of mine. She when we were working together on her story, one of the things that she at the end, she decided to use is, like, how she love gardening. And that’s totally unrelated to to obviously Web Design.

I love it. Yeah. But she was telling me how every season one season she work on the garden, the next season she does enjoy being in the garden with a glass of wine. Mhmm. And I thought that’s a brilliant visual image of you drinking wine.

And she offer intensive services for her, clients. So it’s like, as in the season of gardening, you are working hard, getting things ready, and then your client is enjoying the work with this, imaginative glass of wine. So she can use how she’s really diligent, know which, tools she needs, how to prepare in advance, and all that. And then, like, everything is ready to enjoy and to make it work by itself. So she’s using that.

And it’s like, at the beginning you might think, okay, this is not epic, not how No. In the garden, really. So it depends on how you are sharing the context. The same with the coffee as we were telling just now. It’s like how you are also maybe playing with this concept of the coffee and the flavoring and so on.

Yeah. So it’s not just about which story or which moment to choose you choose. It’s also about how you share it, how you articulate the connection, and how you provide use that to provide context to people. Yeah. Definitely.

And also just being consistent too. Like, you can’t expect to, you know, create this lore for your brand or these stories here and then mention it one time and Yeah. Say that it’s good. Like and that’s supposed to be a relief too. Like, great.

Now you’d have one last idea that you have to think of the next time you want to write an email or make a post or, say hi on your stories or something like that. So that should be like a like a grounding thing in your brand. It’s like the inside jokes. You just understand them when you really know, a show or whatever or the person, and then you you understand those when you really know the brand or you really know that that concept. So you need to repeat, something for that to see to to think as well.

Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. You don’t have to overthink it. Yeah.

Okay. So let’s go back to the boundaries because I feel that’s a really interesting topic too. And I I would love to know your approach on how you use your copy, the copy that you do for your clients for for setting those boundaries. Yes. So I feel like website copy as a tool is just vastly underrated for so many different things.

Of course, you think of, you know, website copy as something that you invest in or work in or get audited by a copywriter because you want to, funnel more of the right clients into your business and you want to, you know, make more sales because we all do. But what website copy can also do is make sure that you’re giving the people coming to your business the right expectations of what it is going to be like to work with you. And I feel like every business owner, every service provider for sure has had some, tricky client situations that if we’re being really honest with ourselves, we probably could have prevented if we had communicated better about what our expectations are and how, things are gonna go with the project. This is not to say that everything is your fault, far from it, because we always we know there are gonna be red flag clients that are just determined to be red flags no matter what you do. But I feel like every service provider can relate to if you’ve had a tricky client situation, you probably learned something from it, and you made a change going forward.

And with essential boundaries in our business, like when you can expect communication, what timelines are, when they are expected to pay their invoices, how they’re expected to give feedback, what else they need to do so that their project is successful. All of that can be communicated on your website and in your copy. So, yes, you should be explaining these on sales calls, kickoff calls, in your contracts proposals, and all of that, but really hitting that from the get go, from the website copy and setting them up for a successful and well boundaried engagement with you, that can be done on the page as well. So you’re kind of reducing those yellow flags with clients by just having copy that is addressing all of the things that might be a concern later. Yeah.

I think these are really powerful advice because any of us, we can’t, check our website and see. Okay. I am setting here, like, the the expectations, especially, and I I think also I can see not that much now, but there has been a moment where the tendency was kind of promising that big achievement that sometimes goes overpromising because where things that people cannot actually, get sure that their their clients will achieve. But this idea of I need to, like share good at the results in a way that are so appealing that tend to go in a line where it’s like, are you overpromising here? Can’t you for sure make sure that this client of yours are getting that results?

So I feel that there is also a line that is, like, tricky, and I feel that’s also related to boundaries with the expectations in general. Yes. Yeah. That’s such an important point. And this also ties into the messaging of it all going back to, you know, what vibe are you putting out?

Like, what kind of people does your persona attract, and what kind of messaging are is like, what is your current messaging resonating? How is that resonating with people right now? Because what a lot of us don’t wanna do, even though it maybe has happened for you in the past, is we don’t wanna attract clients that are, you know, going to test our boundaries or think that you are some, like, end all be all savior to whatever problem that they are trying to fix. I’ve even talked to service providers that want to set boundaries that maybe this isn’t so much as, like, a red flag, green flag client thing, but they might want to be setting more boundary. Like, I am a, like, I am an expert that you bring in for this one project, which is different than partnering with you on something that you are trying to bring.

Some people really like that partnership dynamic, but some people just want to, like, do the project, do it really dang well, and get out of there. Both of those are okay, but I think it’s important for you to know which kind of engagement you prefer and tailor your messaging and your copy to attract those kind of people and make sure that, you know, the people you’re bringing in are aware of what kind of engagement this is gonna be. 100%. And I feel also it’s connected to this idea of the type of communication that you appreciate when working with someone. It’s like how even that can be something that you, incorporate in your website copy or in your messaging in general.

Is like, okay. Which is my style? Maybe you are a more direct person. Maybe you are someone that prefer, things in a certain way. So how even your messaging has this your voice and your tone is actually, like, not something that feels like from a different person.

And I have also this, like, this is something that and then for my own brand, it’s like, okay. I need to review that because maybe I came across in a certain way in my when I am live, but then in my emails, I am this dry, cold person. It’s like, okay. I want not to to feel, like, connected and not that, like, your boarding process, how you are bringing your personality there. So I feel that’s also connected to that.

How every interaction that someone has with your brand either your website, either you in a call or something is like how everything fits together and feels like, yeah. This is the same brand. This is the same person. And so this is something that, personally is interested to me, like, making sure that the interactions are, like, kind of aligned and doesn’t feel like two different people talking to me. Yeah.

That’s such a good point. And that’s a benefit of, you know, one, having your website done by someone who’s not in your brain, and to working on your messaging as well, is that I feel like if you’re if you’re DIY ing everything, you might be thinking like, oh, I really am obsessed with this person’s emails, and I want them to sound like this. Or, oh, I’m obsessed with this person’s website, and I want mine to kinda be like that. Or, oh, this person is really great on threads, and I want mine to all sound like that. Working with someone who can help you get clear on who you are and what your brands comes across as and what your messaging is can really help, like, reduce some of that personality switching because I have I’ve definitely definitely seen that before.

People are like, well, this person’s brand is really successful on this platform, so I must sound like that in order to, you know, be successful there, and I really want that. But that’s not sustainable in the long run, and people are going to pick up on that disconnect. Yeah. And back to this idea, it’s like somehow when you are reading or when you are in touch with that brand, you feel it like something is off. Maybe you don’t know what, but something you feel something off.

So yeah. I I totally agree on that. Okay. Before we finish, I don’t know if there are something that we haven’t covered, but maybe something that you would like to to for people to think about when they are thinking of addressing their messaging, especially thinking of one approach that is, like, the main character messaging? Yes.

So one of the key reasons why I created main character messaging in this framework is because I saw that clients were coming to me in they usually fell into one of two buckets. So one would be they are really good at sounding legit, and they are good at what they do, and they are good at communicating that, but they’re lacking some of the personality and the personal branding side of it. The other bucket would be, of course, the opposite. They know how to show up like a personal brand. They know how to bring the vibes, but sounding legit and like an authority, that was the struggle for them.

So because I was seeing that most people were struggling with, at least one of these things, those are the two elements that I married to create main character messaging, and really make this framework that makes you able to come across as someone who is able to sell easily no matter what platform you’re you’re on. So to do that, we’re marrying both your personal branding persona here and also what type of authority you are coming across as. So you’re hitting both sides of, how people, you know, trust you you of, like, yes, I vibe with this person. They are, you know, funny, direct, engaging, blah blah blah, whatever yours up your verbs are, your descriptors. And, also, we are hitting the trust aspect of this person knows what they’re doing.

They have a track record of getting results, and I trust that they are going to, that I’m in good hands with them. So those are the two things that I, really want to bring together and I think more people need to consider when it comes to their brands. Yeah. This is so interesting how you are combining these both sides of things. And in a way, I am also combining in my own framework two sides, like the the part of their journeys and the part of the what they offer.

So again, this idea of you can combine things and make it in that way is a unique combination, but there are no one else, like, having that combination. Based on what you mentioned about the authority type, I know that you have a quiz. So I am making sure that people has the link in the description. I actually went myself and did the quiz. Actually, I love how the question and the result that, I got, Claire, a clear authority type.

You. Yes. Yeah. And I feel, like, really good with that result. It’s like, yeah.

I want that. Actually, what you we shared there. So I invite people to go and do that for themselves because it’s like, okay. Are you getting this is the type of authority that you want to get across as well. So because for me, clarity is one of the main things that I love to bring to my clients.

They are in this overwhelmed, situation. And then after working together, they have the clarity of which stories they are going to share Mhmm. When and why. And it’s like that brings confidence and that will lead to sales because that’s clarity on what how you present yourself and your business. So I love that.

So when I saw that, it’s like, oh, yeah. I I really appreciate this result. Yes. Yeah. And if I can elaborate on that a bit more.

So the authority types quiz is, you know, another thing that I created because I was like, there’s nothing out here that is, you know, helping people with this one thing. And that’s actually one part of the main character messaging framework that you can get for free. And it’s on a it like, I should not have made it free. There’s so much good information in there. But, basically, the main benefit of the authority types quiz is that, you know, there’s so much content out there and coaching about, like, how to sound like an authority.

Here’s how you create an authority piece, whatever that is. And then, you know, they direct you to some, I don’t know, formula or whatever on, like, some cringy thought leadership or whatever. But, actually, people have different types of authorities, and there are gonna be different reasons why people see you as an authority. So what the quiz does is it helps you narrow down on which one is most natural for you, why that works, and some different sales tools that you can use to start showing up more like an authority in your business. So definitely take the authority types quiz.

It’s linked on my website and my links all over the place. So take that, and let me know which kind you get. I’m a I’m a a clear authority as well. So Yeah. Nice.

So I can Cool. Yeah. It was really valuable, so I invite everyone to go and and check it out. Okay. So to wrap up, I always ask, like, for a way to summarize the connection between the topics that we have been talking about, especially personal brand story, main character messaging.

So how will you summarize that in a few words? I would say practical and imaginative. I feel like we’re just hitting the, like, two sides of the both things you need. The duality of it all is really, appealing to me in this conversation. So yes.

Yeah. Well yes. So Love that. For me, I would say the main thing that came to mind is, like, how no one size fits all. For sure.

And there are options that you can try. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And have fun with it.

Yes, please. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for for all your insights, for being here today, sharing your thoughts.

People can see the links, in the description. But if you want to send them to a specific channel to talk to you or or find what you do, where they can find, what is the best place for them to go? Yes. So my website, Instagram, and threads are all darkroastcopy.co. So you can find me in any of those channels there and reach out, say hi.

Yeah. And if they take the the authority type, please share with us. If you have any thoughts about our conversation today, feel free to share in the comments, ask anything. And for me, if they are curious about different ways to think about specific moments that they can share, they can go to my website the where there are specific examples of how to think about their past lab life experiences, how to use that for for their actual messaging. So thank you so much.

This was a pleasure. Until next time. Yes. Thanks, Reme.