Personal Brand Story and Launch Copywriting,
with Reme Mancera and Laura Kendrick

Hello. Welcome to Intersection Chats. I am Reme Mancera, a personal brand story strategist, and I’m here today with Laura Kendrick. Thank you so much for accepting this invitation. Looking forward to this conversation.

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. This is gonna be so fun. Thanks. So, as I mentioned, we are going to be talking about the intersection, in this case, between personal brand story and launch copywriting.

Before we start, if you want to introduce yourself, what should you do and who you are, please? Yes. So I am a copywriter. I’m the founder of Cheeky Copy, and I specialize in launch copy and, actually, website copy that actually converts not just, you know, putting your digital business card out into the world. And so, yeah, I mean, I spend my time in a place where I’m trying to figure out how to really connect with people out in the, you know, the web verse and connect with the right people, which is I think where this intersection is really beautifully intertwined.

Yeah. So let’s go into the topic. In your experience, how has been, like the connection between our topics, like personal brand story and launch copywriting, how they have impacted each other in your experience? Yeah. It’s well, it’s interesting.

So we many of us were kind of born into this online space, if you will, under this idea of we want to have a personal brand. Right? That like, or this is the kind of the should advice, if you will. But then so many of us also struggle with where is the line of me between me and my personal brand. Where am I sharing too much?

Like, should I be sharing about my kids? Should I be sharing about my personal relationships? And some people say yes. Some people say no. And then you have to kind of find this gray area.

And the beautiful thing about this advice is it really does naturally call in people who will resonate with you and will push out people who won’t. For instance, I have a client right now who we are we’re doing some messaging work, and we were talking about who she wants to work with. Well, she has a wife. And so she was kind of talking about, well, I don’t wanna work with somebody who is not going to be nice to me about that. I’m like, well, maybe that’s the thing is sharing just a bit of the personal brand story and folding a bit of that in.

It will, without having to be overt, will naturally push off people who she really doesn’t want in her world, who will eat at her energy, and call in people who are gonna be okay in her world and will treat her with respect and kindness, which is exactly what she wants. Right? Yeah. Yeah. A 100%.

And I love that you bring the topic of privacy because that’s an super important topic for me, like, the deciding the level of detail that you are sharing about it. And I feel like, as you said, you can do it in a way that is just briefly mentioned or you can go deeper into this because this is an important part of you and you are an advocate and you want to be, like, really, open about the how you are into into this activism or or it’s just part of your life. So it depends on you how you want to do it and how much you want to share. But you can do it in a way that is maybe mentioning briefly about this, and it’s already, like, having that touch of, okay. It’s going to to be a way of making people aware of this and who will resonate with that, who will respect that, and so on.

So I feel that’s a a really good point. And I feel this idea how as you mentioned, at the beginning, you are not sure about what to share and how to do things and and deciding what to share. I feel like it’s so important to have clarity on, first of all, what you want to share in sense of the boundaries and the set of that. But, also, who is the audience that you are trying to reach out? Who is the people that you would like to work with, that would you would like to have?

And then what are you offering to them? What is the solution or or or the the way that you are trying to to serve them? To me, it’s really important that the I and that’s why I see this overlapping so so interesting is, like, how is strategic storytelling? It’s not just sharing a nice story, interesting one, surprising one. It’s also because it’s personal brand stories about your business.

It’s how it’s connected to your what you offer. And that’s how I am really interested into this idea of, how to use it in the launch copywriting especially because it’s like, this is a lot about making clear about what you are offering. And that’s the strategic point I feel is so important specifically here in this case. Yeah. I love that you like, I just love all the things you just said because I am definitely the person who gives more often than not, gives the answer that nobody ever wants to hear, but it it’s the answer and it’s it depends.

So that, like, where is that boundary? It depends. It depends on you as a person. It depends on your business. It depends on your offer.

It depends on your audience. It depends on so many bits and pieces. I firmly, firmly believe that there is no aspect of business that can wholly be templatized and just drop you know, like, taken from one other business and dropped on to yours and that it’s going to have the exact same effect it had on that business. It I mean, sure. You can always take aspects of these things, but you can’t just take somebody else’s, like, things and just be like, oh, it’s gonna work exactly the same.

It’s not because there’s so much nuance and variance and all those bits and pieces. So, yeah, I I love that you you said that. When it comes to launch, it’s interesting. We’re in a really interesting moment in launching too because some people are deeply, deeply struggling. I know of some one in particular, One of the best known brands out there in the online space is doing a massive pivot because the old system that they were using wasn’t working as well.

It wasn’t as effective. And I completely and totally respect that, but I’m also seeing other brands who are still and just starting out with 7 figure launches, which is, you know, like, wouldn’t we all love a little bit of that? But it’s we’re in this space where things are shifting and changing, and they’re shifting so fast. And at the heart of this, what I have seen as being successful is genuine, like, not how can I systematize it and make it look like I give a crap about my people? It’s like genuine connection and caring with your audience, with your people, with your clients.

That’s what’s driving those really big launches for the most part, and that’s what seems to be kind of threading the needle into this new space. The people who have stepped back from their business and are playing the numbers game, they’re seeing that the old tactics aren’t working as well. And it’s not to say that their businesses are crumbling. They absolutely are not. They are certainly, they’re still at the top of their game.

They’re just having to maneuver and figure out the new things just like everyone else. Yeah. 100%. And I feel like you’re touching on a couple of things that are really important, especially the nuance of how different businesses, different ways of communicating, and how you want to show, like, showcase your personality, your authority, what is why this is important to you. It’s not just about bringing an an amazing offer.

It’s also about why you as a person, you really are interested into working on this or teaching me or or or helping me in a way. I feel that now more than ever, you feel like that need of understanding, like, the the reasons why people are doing things that that help build that connection. And I feel that’s really important. It’s like, okay. I I feel that that person is trustworthy.

So I will listen to what they have to offer to me. Otherwise, if I feel like that’s not the right person to me because we don’t have affinity or or we are not aligned, I might be not being listening to their offer either. It’s like it’s like the first touch, of the human behind the brand, if you will. And then also and the other way around. Maybe I am looking for this kind of solution and I get several of them, and then I will try to to decide who as me, as a consumer, as a client, who I want to decide from.

I will check also for that aspect of, okay. I trust this person, and I feel like, for example, with you, with the messaging, and I do around storytelling, people are opening up about topics that are really important. And so you really need to feel, like, safe and trust the other person to work around this if you are going to do a more in-depth, work on messaging and not just taking some formulas or cookie cutter thing. If you really want to do something with nuances and with your voice, with your way of doing things, you are doing some deep work there as well. Right.

And it’s interesting too because it’s, we are in a space now where the buyer’s more sophisticated. We’re all more sophisticated. I mean, we all understand marketing, like, in a way that we didn’t before. In, you know, in the nineteen sixties, the Madison Avenue marketing firms that were, you know, shaking things up and were doing unbelievable business, people weren’t as sophisticated as they are now. Now we all understand the the tactics.

We all have been I hate to say it. We’ve all been burned. We’ve all paid a lot of money for something and felt like we didn’t get our money’s worth or we’re like, this was wrong. And it makes it so that the world is louder. Yes.

So we have to in our own personal marketing and with our personal brands, we have to be able to maneuver through that. But the benefit of that is that back in that time, it was like you took any client you could. Like, if you think about it, if you go back to a space where we weren’t so globalized, people like, if you went to go buy your house or or buy a house in an area, you had very few choices in people who could help you find that house. Now, I mean, I could throw a stone and hit 50 realtors. You know?

Like, it’s just I have options. So I’m going to pick to the person who’s actually listening to me, who’s going to show me the house I and I’m actually thinking about this when we bought this house. I remember we went and looked at a house with a real estate agent, and I said to him that there was a particular kind of house that I didn’t like. Like, structurally, I just didn’t like that kind of house. And the very first house he took us to was one of those.

I’m like, why? And his response to me when I asked him why was, well, sometimes I find that people don’t know what they want. And I was like, you’re fired. Yeah. You and his communication style is there.

Yes. Like, how dare we assume that people don’t know what they want and need? Like, ew. So being able to kinda take advantage of this and I think this is the beauty of having that refined messaging. And because part of that messaging is who are you?

Like, who are your people, but who are you? And this is where it really intersects with that brand story is because if you can tell that story, you’re actually calling in people that you want to work with. So instead of just throwing up your shingle and hoping a bunch of people who aren’t the absolute worst walk through your door. You’re actually able to share a little bit about who you are granted in the way you want to and that serves you and your business and your people, but you’re able to, like, really filter out the people who don’t resonate with you, which is amazing. Like, I don’t like getting on calls with people I hate, like you.

Yeah. It’s like having the the way to actually work with the people that you are excited about working with. Yes, please. Yes. Yes.

To be able to get on calls with clients and be like, yes. Or to be able to do, like, sales calls that don’t like, I have never been on a sales call, at least one that I’m directing, that I’m trying to make the sale that has actually felt like a sales call. Mhmm. They always feel like these lovely conversations, and it is and it’s not some mental game that I’m playing where I get on and I, like, know we’re gonna work together. I know we’re gonna work together because I like this person and they like me, and I know I can help them.

It’s not a icky tactic. It’s just, like, oh my gosh. Let’s do this. Like, let’s yay. Yeah.

Excitement. Absolutely. Yeah. Even the the way you called your I I call these clarity calls because I feel that it’s like getting the clarity if that we are fitting together and we are both excited about this. So, actually yes.

And what you mentioned about the options, having so many different options at the moment, I feel I work a lot with, digital service providers and coaches, creative. So a lot of people that they offer services through, like, online, like, via online. So it’s like I actually, I am my most of my clients are not from the place that I live. I I am from Spain, and most of my clients are from all over the world. And it’s like, yeah.

You have the possibilities now to choose from so many different people. So it’s also using your messaging as a way to actually make people understand what is important to you, what are your values, what is your personality, what is your approach. Because it’s like, it could be for example with your expertise there could be several people specifically doing launch copywriting, but for each of you will have a different angle something like, even I I always, said that, like, look for what is, like, the differentiator in the sense of two people offering similar services that you are doing, but you your angle will be different. Maybe you are an innovator. Maybe you are someone that is, like, more about taking a different angle in in a sense.

So what is your that differentiation and how you communicate that using your story as a bridge to highlight, like, yeah. This is a a way that I do things because that’s important to me. And so so yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And do I mean, let’s be real. Like, as a copywriter, like, we’re a dime a dozen. Like, I know that. And now with AI Yeah. That has and it’s funny because I get asked this a lot.

Like, aren’t you scared that you’re gonna be replaced by AI? I’m like, no. First of all, I’m not. Because the people who are not thinking it through, who are, like, templatizing it and just like this goes here, this goes here, just answer this this yes or no question. Yes.

They’re gonna get replaced. Yes. I can replace them in six point two seconds. But the fact that I’m thinking deeply about things, that I’m bringing my own bag of thought process to this, that I am working with particular people in this really thoughtful and nuanced way. No.

I’m not scared about it. Like, it’s totally good. And the fact that I’m listening and paying attention and taking the time to hear all of these things and talk to people. Like, one of my favorite things to do personally is in the marketing space. Like, I have people who will just that we’re friends, and they’ll just drop something in Voxer or an email or on Instagram or wherever.

And my question is like, oh my gosh. Tell me how did it go? Tell me what the strategy was. And it has nothing to do with, like, I I don’t need them. You know, I’m not looking for inside information for any reason other than I just wanna hear how things are happening in the wild.

Mhmm. And I want to just like, I’m building these little internal case studies in my mind that help influence my advice, my strategy, and my thoughts in the moment moving forward right now. You know, all those things. Yeah. And so I’m just, like, become this, like, little nerd.

You know, this little sponge is like, tell me more. Oh, I feel so related to that. I have been I started as a actually, as a virtual assistant for course creators, and I was in I have been in so many funnels of people that they were doing their webinars and all their lunches and all that just for the willing to learn and to analyze how was the things going there. And now with the stories, I am collecting new ways of using your personal brand story creatively. So now I’m just, okay this person is using this like in the with clients as well I ask them how you’re using any they are using sales calls or they are using in like their photo shoots and so on.

So it’s like yeah. Let’s think about different ways because maybe I don’t think about that. That is something valuable for for people. So I feel that that’s curiosity. I’m willing to learn and listening to others what is working, what is not.

This something really valuable. I feel that is something as well that can help you to feel not, like, as a how is the work? Like, it’s not that this, AI is, like, a risk. It’s a tool that I might be curious to see how people are using. It’s something that I I am, like, looking.

And there is nuances and there is a different aspect to consider about using it or not using it and so on. But it’s not from a place of I have I am afraid. And then it’s like, okay. I want to learn what is implied in my work and how it’s used, like, and and how I can maybe be open to different perspectives that I didn’t think about. So I think that being open about I’m curious is so, yeah, it’s so fulfilling in a way that you are growing.

Either way, you are growing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, and I think that’s the thing too is when you start folding in these things, these personal brand stories. Like, have you ever I mean, I I think we’ve all had our lazy moments with AI where it’s just like, can you just answer this email for me?

I just don’t have it. And or write me a bio for, like, filling out some other application for some other thing, and it’s like it comes up with such garbage. You’re like, okay. Like, it it has to start with something. Right?

So you have to give it something. And and this is even it’ll come up with garbage even though it knows a ton about me because I’ve had this account for a long time, and I’ve used it and played with it. And it knows a lot, and it still is, like, gives me this schmoozy, icky, and I’m like, that’s not me. And but if you start if you start with a story, if you start with that nugget and you give it to that, then it can grow from there. And here’s the thing, though, is that that’s what sets us apart.

And if you think about that, like, we were talking about it being such a loud world, and we’re trying to come out of what sometimes feels like a lot of people shouting into the void about their businesses and sometimes shouting in the exact same thing that you’re shouting in. And if you’re using AI all the time or you’re not differentiating yourself or not telling your story or any of those pieces, then, yeah, they are shouting into the void the exact same thing. But if you can step back and filter in that humanity, that give a crap about your people, the clarity of who your people are, like, who do you wanna serve? There’s and, like, this is one of my favorite things to tell people. And every time I do it from a live stage, I literally get people even in the most quiet rooms, I get people, like, hooting at me.

There’s enough clients and money to go around. Like, full stop. We don’t have to be like, you’re not fighting. I’m not fighting the copywriter in the online space next door. We’re not fighting each other.

We’re not really competitors. We’re different. And if we simply stay in our lane and do what we love and use our own like, who do you actually want to serve? Like, who do you want to work with? And, yes, you I can sit here and say, I write launch copy for course creators and service providers and, coaches in the online space.

Fine, dandy. But what does that mean? Because, really, I like working with people who are more in the because, like, I’m a yoga teacher. I love it when people are working in that kind of more mindful space and that more holistic space. And in the business world too, not just, like, b to c, also b to b where they have that a a slightly different view because this is my like, this is where I I thrive in in this, like, rebellious, weird space in the world.

And the moment I chose to embrace that, first of all, I started liking my business for the first time, like, consistently. It got easier. It got more fun to do the marketing and talk about it rather than truly taking a long time. Like, I went years where I was doing this business almost underground. Like, I had no marketing about it.

It was really just referral based, And I did just fine, but it was after every client nearly, nearly, I had some I loved. But after nearly every client, I would go, why am I doing this? Like, I should do something different. Like, this is awful. And then I had one amazing client who actually is somebody I know in real life.

We actually did it in a trade. Like, I wanted into her program and, like, the budget just didn’t have space for it. I was like, how about I do this for you? And she was like, great. Let’s do it.

And I walked away from that. And even though it was totally crashing in, it was the opposite way I tell people to do things. It was I was sending her a launch email, and she was sending it out that day. Like, it was nuts. But I also walked away with, like, that was so like, it was so good.

It was so good. I was proud of the work. It was fun. It was yes. I wanted to pull my hair out on the timeline.

Like, that wasn’t my favorite part, but the rest of it was awesome. And it that was my moment where I went, it’s the people. It’s the fact that I can’t just do this generic thing. I have to embrace me. I am somebody just referred to me as I am spicy.

I swear. You know, so I, like, I pulled all the the kind of corporatized crap off the website, slapped on the, like, silly GIFs, the crazy pictures of me doing funny things because that’s who I am. I actually just last month got on a stage in front of a room full of people wearing jeans and, you know, a baggy sweater, whereas everyone else was in heels and their red lipstick and looking beautiful, and it’s like, rock on. That’s not me. I’m sitting here in a flannel.

This is me. Yeah. Love that. Love that. And yeah.

Because it’s like, when you embrace who you are and and get clarity on what you want to do and with which kind of people you want to work with, it’s like, yeah. You will want to be excited about doing this work, and it’s like, you will need still to to get people to know you and to to promote your things. And then why don’t do it in a way that you are actually working with people that you enjoy? So so yeah. And, and, yeah, I also feel this, how when, like, you understand which kind of people you really connect with and work well with is like yeah.

And and for example, for me, one of the reasons why I started to doing things in this way is, like, I work a lot with people. They feel they don’t have an epic story because I remember the overwhelm of I don’t have a I my life is normal. I don’t know what yeah. Oh, what’s going on? It.

Beans. They can’t see it. And I I find that I find that happens so often, especially when I am happening to do messaging work with a client. It’s actually one of my favorite things to do only because of, like, the thing that really lights me up is the ahas that come out of it. Yes.

The as we’re cruising through, like, I have one client who, I mean, he’s been doing the same thing for nearly sixteen years now. And pre COVID, the business was easy. Like, what he does for a living is, like, it was almost an excuse to print money. Like, that’s how easy it was for them to do things. And then when COVID hit, suddenly, they were able to be online and everything shifted.

They had to learn how to market and actually run a business rather than just like, hi. I’m here, and people would just be like, oh, great. Here. I have my money. Wouldn’t that be lovely?

But it in doing that, we were doing this deep messaging work, and I like, just sitting there with him, and he would just like, he knows his clients so well, and he would spout this stuff up. And I’m like, do you see the gold here? And he’s like, oh, no. But people can’t see it. They’re too close to it.

They’re like, why why are my kids interesting? Why is my you know? Actually, one of the emails I got the most feedback on this year was, had a moment with one of the parent teacher organization moms that I I’m on a part of the organization and a moment with one of them where they kind of behaved as you would expect in the cliche of that. And I shared a little bit of the frustration of that in an email without too much detail, but the responses I got from people were like, oh my god. Yes.

But you wouldn’t think that would be interesting, but it was interesting. And I was also able to adeptly thread the needle into what I was actually talking about because you can’t just throw a story like that up there and be like, that’s it. Like, you do have to somehow, like, make the path where it makes sense. Mhmm. And in doing that, people felt it because all the people with kids or who had parents who were on the in a part of these organizations or have seen, you know, the movie bad moms or something, they all get it in some way, and it it lights a little light bulb up for them.

And so then they are like, they have an emotional response. And that’s, by the way, that’s what sells our emotions, not the facts, not the details, not anything else. It’s the emotions, the connectedness. That’s what actually sells at the end of the day. Yeah.

100% idea of how important it is not just to share a story, but then how this is connected to the message or what you want to convey. And I feel that’s one of the reasons why some people get, like, really, disconnected to this idea of also Italy because they feel like how this is relevant for my business or for what I sell. That’s for me, that’s why it’s so important to to connect both. And I call this framework that I create the story connectors because of that. One part is one meaningful moment of your journey and then the other part is a key factor, a benefit of what you offer.

So I represent as two circles. They are touching each other. There’s something in the middle. That’s the piece that you want to use for your messaging for whenever you are sharing your your that story. And that give you the the idea of, k.

I know exactly why I’m sharing this story because I am highlighting this specific benefit, this specific factor. So I feel that it’s giving you a lot of confidence when you are sharing your story because you know why. It’s not just you sharing a maybe nice, maybe interesting, maybe funny stories. Also, how that is connecting back to the point that you want to share, the lesson that you want to highlight there in that email or as part of the launch or so. Yeah.

I think every once in a blue moon, it’s alright to do kind of a non sequitur of, like, life is life. Mhmm. But it really does have to be the blue moon, like, or else it becomes then it becomes an exercise in your ego. And that is it is the art of being able to thread things through from the story to the point of why they’re there because the people who are actually on your list or or are watching your social media, they’re doing it for a reason. They want to hear what you have to say, but they don’t necessarily want to, you know, hear your every little detail of your life.

And that it does become an art form to be able to do that, but I think one of the, like, key ways to do that is embrace your weird. Mhmm. Like, when you were reading a book or watching a show because this happens to me all the time. I will be watching a show, and I’m like, oh, oh, oh. Like, that, like, is kind of you know, you have that you know that thing you have where you learn a new word, and then suddenly for the first time in your life, you hear this word, like, 15 times in three days?

And I feel like that happens with thoughts too where you suddenly have this thought of, like, I’m thinking about this differently. And then you’re watching, like, an episode of Full House from 1987, and you’re like and then you’re watching, you know, whatever. I I don’t even know. Like, Real Housewives now, and you’re like, oh, oh, wait. Like, this is all connecting.

Spill it. Share it. Tell like, make those little things and be a little detailed in the story of, you know, Michelle Tanner said this, and it made me think about this. And it you know? And people go, oh, oh, because you’re looking through your own little weird lens that other people aren’t looking through.

And they’ll be so appreciative to put those glasses on for a minute and see the world through your eyes because it’s probably gonna turn their own little weird lens on, which helps them grow. Yeah. I I absolutely, feel that that’s like an, an exercise that, you can do to to share your points and and to, yeah, sharing your angle, sharing your perspective. I feel that is helping people to get closer to okay. I understand the context of this person and how is this combination unique combination of personality values, background, experience, expertise.

Right? So if we go to the topic of launches specifically, what is, something that you feel is a mistake that people should avoid? There’s a really easy one, and then there’s a bigger one. The really easy one is crashing into launches. Like, my the the person who, you know, made me think, oh, I like this job.

Crashing into them is a huge mistake. The idea of, well, I think I might launch, you know, in two weeks or three weeks or next month, like, oh my gosh. No. Because here’s the thing, and here’s the bigger mistake that people make. They don’t understand that launch is a full marketing arc.

Mhmm. It is a full strategy. It is not just, like, doors open, doors close. I think I might do this next month to just get a cash influx. I hear you.

We all need a cash influx from time to time. You’re always like, there’s other ways of doing that. A launch is not the right way to do that because in reality, it is the full arc where you have to think about like, launching is numbers game. It’s it’s a numbers game, and you have to have grown your audience by a certain amount in order to kind of hit your goals, and it takes a whole flow. Like, it it really is like this little roller coaster where you have to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, then you have to connect with them, nurture them in the in the kinda traditional sense of it, but they need to get to know you.

You can’t just get somebody you I think of it as, like, dating. Mhmm. You don’t go on a blind date and, you know, you order the appetizers and the person across from you is like, so what do you think? You wanna get married? Like, that’s intense.

That’s really intense. Right? Like, no. I wanna leave. You you go on these dates.

You get to know them. And then over time, you make the decision if this is the right person for you or not. And so you either commit or you don’t. And in essence, that’s what this whole arc is like, and you have to give them the space to walk through the choose to walk through the door, decide if they’re in the right place, get to know you a little bit, and then you offer the sale to them, and they accept or decline. And then also, by the way, just because they declined this time doesn’t mean they’re gonna decline next time.

Yeah. But you still have to think of it as, like, the a really solid launch is spacious. It’s being thought of in terms of not just five days or eight days or ten days of, like, cart open to cart close. They’re thinking about it like the good ones. We’re talking about people who are going into prelaunch.

They’re doing ninety day prelaunches, and that’s not even the list growth phase and then the nurture phase. So we’re talking about people who are doing six month launches. Like, that’s the whole cadence is we have a very intentional moment where we are doing these big list build moves, then we’re slowing down and we’re simply kinda talking to people, maybe offering them some small deals or some ways of connecting with you that make sense for your kind of offer suite. And then you kick into the launch, and then you do it again. And so having it really, like, thought out and having a rhythm to it, and it doesn’t mean that this is your only way of making money, but it does mean that it is this kind of big foundational piece of it that you have to think about, and you cannot just crash into a launch at least repeatedly because, yes, people get lucky, of course.

But you won’t repeatedly see success long term with this model. And by the way, your, like, stress levels will be insane if you are constantly just crashing in because there’s so much riding on it. You need the income, and you’re not prepared, and you’re, like, you know, minute to minute, and it is like a cortisol manufacturing thing happening in your body, and that’s not awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

You don’t want to as we said that we you want to connect and get relationship, with clients that you love to work with. You don’t want to create this excess machine for yourself. People can feel that. Yes. People can feel that.

If you’re coming and, like, I know if if you’re not a terribly woo person, you might be sitting here being like, she’s full of it. I am not. Like, think about going on a sales call or seeing an email where you just kinda like, there was nothing wrong with it other than you went, oh, that’s, like, really slimy. The person on the other end of that was desperate in all likelihood. It was like, oh god.

I need the money. I need the money. You can feel that. And, like, I know that in those moments where I’ve sent an email that’s like, oh, crap. The budget’s tight this month.

Let’s see if we can get something in the door. And I send out a mass email. Those are the ones that have, like, no open rates. Like, nobody clicks through. They can feel it.

It’s not the same vibe. And people will kinda push away from it. They don’t wanna be just a number in your checking account. Yeah. So true.

I I something that you mentioned about this idea because, I feel that people think about lunches just like opening the door, closing the door kind of way. So I love this approach that that you highlighted here of prelabs, phase. And even before that, list building, and then the launch itself. And I know because I was listening to some podcast interview that you did about the post launch, phase. How that’s something that a lot of people get, not so so intentional about and how that have make a lot of difference.

So I would love for you to, yeah, to share about this idea. Yeah. It’s not just the launch. It’s Yeah. Other places as well.

I nobody talks about it, but it really should be a thing. I very well might be the only one talking about it. I’m not really sure. But the idea of a post launch and thinking about it, it it is this unbelievable little time where you can yes. You should, behind the scenes, be, like, debriefing it, thinking about, like, looking at the actual numbers.

What worked? What didn’t work? What was a total fail? And what was amazing? What would you do again?

And, like, this is not only numbers, but also feelings. Like, how did this feel to you? Did it feel too intense? Did it feel like you needed space? Did it feel like you know, all those things.

So you need to look at that stuff for sure so that you can iterate and make it better in the future and change what is no longer working. Because as we talked about in the beginning, things are shifting a mile a second now. It’s not even a minute anymore. It is like, but, also, it’s a really unbelievable time to connect with people and connect with people who bought because this is something that a lot of people don’t think about. Your onboarding matters.

How they come in, it matters a lot. And if you miss boats, those are people who are going to be like, I don’t really know what’s going on here, and they’re gonna leave because they don’t feel psychological safety. They don’t feel like they belong, and they’re gonna like, they might finish the program and then out they go because it’s just not the they don’t feel like it’s their place, and they’re they feel lost, and that’s not good. Yeah. But then also there’s an opportunity to connect with the people who didn’t buy, who are still on your list because you don’t necessarily know why some of them are on your list, though there are definitely ways you can find that out.

But there are people who are on your list that are there to support you, who will be flag waivers in their own communities, who may never buy from you, but they will surely send you sales. There are people who are not quite ready, but they might be in the future. There are people who have bought from you in the past, and this might not be the right offer, but there might be another one down the road. So there’s all sorts of people on your list. And making space to connect with them is really important, and this is actually one of the ways of being real, being a human, creating your personal brand to a certain extent, sharing how the launch went.

Mhmm. And if you’re not comfortable sharing numbers, that’s fine. Like, I don’t think you have to, Honestly, people sharing numbers is not usually something that’s gonna move the needle too much. But and a lot of times, it actually kinda feels icky these days. But to be able to share, like, some of the things of, like, this is a lesson I learned.

You know what, guys? Like, I crashed in a little bit. Like, I didn’t make enough space, and, woof, I’m burned out. So and being honest about it. So I’m sending this email, and then I’m getting out of my inbox for the next three days.

So bye. But kinda telling those things or even sharing, especially if you’re, like, a b to b business Mhmm. Sharing what did work, like, in the form of a little tip, they’re gonna be like, oh, do tell. They’re gonna want to know more, and then also engaging with them, starting to talk with them. Yes.

There’s opportunities to do little downsells and things like that. Sure. But I’m thinking more in lines of this is a you went if you went through the phase of we did list growth, then we nurtured, then we sold, let’s go to nurture again for a minute before we open the floodgates to more people where we have to be more about, like, this is what I do. Here’s who I am. How about we spend a moment building this relationship and really kinda taking the time to be human.

Maybe ask them questions like this. What an opportunity to ask a question of like, hey. This is how this felt to me. How did it feel to you? And actually wait and listen to the answer and not in a, like, yes.

A poll is a great thing of, like, why’d you buy? Why didn’t you buy? Those are so it they’re great information to have. But what about the I felt like this felt a little off. How about you?

And be human. People will connect with that. Yeah. I’m being curious about the actual answers. So you are asking them, and you are really want to listen to what they say.

And I feel what you mentioned about sharing about, what the how the lunch did it go. I feel like this idea of sharing the lessons and the emotions, this is something that I use also for the storytelling in general, is if you don’t want to share private details, like, in this case, you don’t want to share their specific numbers, you can go to the emotions that you feel in that in in that process and the lessons because those are things that will help to resonate, they will connect with you, and so on. Same with a general story that you don’t feel like sharing details. You can go in that direction because the emotions is something that they they feel relatable. Even if they didn’t experience that exact experience that you went through, it’s already helpful.

So I feel that’s something that it can apply to to both, like, the general personal brand storytelling, but also specifically in this type of lunch or post lunch conversations. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the I can’t stress enough that, like, connection is king at this point. Like, it really is.

That’s I think that’s how we’re going. We’ve all experienced the, you know, the fake connection through social media that doesn’t feed us, and we’re all recognizing that that, like, oh, it’s lovely to be able to see what some megastar is eating for lunch, but also we’re not really friends. You know? And, like, I need actual people who care about me. And so building real connection with your people is that’s what will build the the lifelong sustaining business that is easier.

Yeah. And I feel that in yeah. Maybe launches, when you first think about that, it doesn’t look like a long term game. And I feel like Canvas or not brand storytelling is is more in the sand, like, something in the long term. But you can do things in a way that is long term.

So I feel like what you just shared about this, cycle of how you are building that relationship with the people that are new to your work and then staying there for several reasons, I feel that that is having this long term, vision because you are not just thinking of, okay. Of course, I I will create the onboarding experience for my new for the new people. But, also, I am thinking of, okay, people that have been working with you for a longer time, how you are, connecting to them, how you are taking care of them. That’s so key. And then thinking about, okay, maybe there is someone that is not they didn’t buy now, but maybe in the future.

Something that you mentioned, and I would love to touch on that, is when it’s like is a person that is not going to buy, but they might refer to their community to so because I’ve this has happened to me when maybe through a I have been a guest or someone who has been in my podcast and so on. And then they somehow put me in their list. So now I am, like, receiving their their newsletters and things like that, but I am not actually interested in their offer, but they want to know about what’s happening in their world. Mhmm. So I feel do you have any, I don’t know, any thoughts around how to handle this?

Because I I feel like sometime maybe at least where it’s just about the people that are potential collaborators. This is something that I I I I don’t have an answer. It’s something that I am thinking about. What can be the best way of doing something like that? I function from a place of generosity.

Like, that’s that is really my driving force. Like, I I and I spent this is kind of what’s moving my needle forward at this particular moment is I spent a long time hearing people say, like, don’t be an over giver or set really strong boundaries. And Mhmm. Yes. I agree.

You don’t wanna you can’t give to the extent that you’re destroying your health and all that. But I and I understand where they’re coming from and why, but also it didn’t align with who I am and and how I want to serve and be with all the people in my life, including my family. So that kind of when it comes to people like that, like, I I will like, I have done it many times where somebody is doing something. I’m not an affiliate. I’m not anything for them, but I just am like, oh, you know what?

This person came to mind or, like, we just had a conversation, and I shout them out. And, literally, like, I did it this summer. I’m just thinking about it because he responded, my friend, Michael. And I just I was talking about a conversation. I didn’t really name him, and then I just put, like, hi, Michael, with, like, a little, like, wave in it, and and I just tagged his website and was like, go.

And, I mean, I don’t know if he got any business from it, but it’s this idea of, like, he he sparked a thought in my mind. Mhmm. And it was an interesting conversation, and it was worth sharing a bit of it to kind of take that path I wanted to take. And, also, why would I hide who it is, especially if it’s, like, a colleague? I I of course, I’m not gonna share the intimate details of clients unless they agree to it, but I love shouting people out.

And I love personally the person who I like, I find now a lot of my kind of coworkers, colleagues, however you wanna refer to it, many of them will serve people who are earlier on in their business than I am. Their offer doesn’t apply to me. It’s not gonna help me. It could’ve helped me five years ago if they were doing it then or if I knew them then, but it’s it’s gonna help me now. And it’s it’s not built for me.

It just isn’t. So being able to kind of point people in their direction and refer them, like, it you’re building your own community. Mhmm. And once you build that community, it’s lovely to not be sitting at this laptop and feeling so alone. You know?

Like, it’s and I I laptop and feeling so alone. You know? Like, it’s and I I genuinely go back to, like, there’s enough clients and money to go around. Like, there really is. And the whole rising tide will lift all boats thing is real.

So the more that you’re kinda putting that energy out into the world, the more those people are gonna put it out to you too, and it becomes this lovely, supportive, collaborative thing. As far as, like, behind the scenes, I mean, there’s definitely ways of tracking and, like, tagging people and all the stuff to make sure that everyone, you know, is getting what they want. But for me personally, like, my typical emails, they just go to anybody who opted to be on my list. And, I mean, I actually just had somebody who’s pretty big in the space hit reply to one of my things. I was like, you’re on my list?

Hi. Lovely to talk to you. But it’s it’s one of those things of she was just replying to, like, a conversation thing. So she’s there because she just wants to be. I and okay.

Nice. I I don’t need to, like, categorize her as something different, but I also know that she is she’s there now. I know that, oh, there actually is a relationship here. So at some point, the next time I see her in person, I’ll have a more pointed conversation and maybe see if I can’t build a little bit of a collaboration or deepen that relationship, not in a sleazy way, but in a, like, hey. You know you know a little bit about me now.

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. K. Thank you.

So before we wrap up, I always like to give the opportunity to if you have any thought or any message that, we haven’t covered but you feel is important to highlight, so feel free to to share. I the thing that’s really in my craw right now is this idea of generosity and hospitality that I kinda just touched on, and that’s actually where my offers are actually shifting of how do we actually build real connection with people and not the the empty, well, you’re a client. Thank you for being a client. Here’s a $5 Starbucks online gift card. And, like, see, I care about you.

No. Like, I want it to be where these people actually are like, holy crap. Like, she’s really thinking about me. Like, beyond the surprise and delight. Like, the genuine, how do we make people walk away from an experience with us and be like, you know, like, just mind blown of how amazing it was to work with us because that’s what I want.

Nice. Yes. This is one of the keys I always say, like, think about what do you like as a someone receiving emails, someone receiving a, offer, a a service. And I feel so, like, touched with with what you said because this actually, I just wrote an, a con a piece of content that is going to be out about how a client, one of the best compliment that someone can tell me, a client, is I felt that you take care of me, that you care, and I feel safe doing this work. Yeah.

As I mentioned, something so private, so deep. I I I feel so grateful for people opening up about their stories to me that I don’t take that for granted. They are sharing their thoughts, their deep concerns, and so on. They are going through the journey, and it’s there is lows and highs for everyone. And maybe they are not sharing in their content, but they’re sharing with me pieces of their privacy.

So I don’t take that for granted. So when they tell me that they feel safe to share with me and trust me, that’s, like, huge. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.

So huge. Okay. So, the final question that I like to ask is, like, if you have a way to summarize the connection between personal brand story and launch copywriting and the work that you do, how will be one, two, or three words to say that? One, two, or three words. I think it’s connection and differentiator are the two words that I would put in there just because those like, when you’re sitting here thinking heavily working through somebody’s templated workbook and a course of, like, how do I make myself stand out?

That’s how. Like, that’s an easy easy way to stand out. Just be you. Love that. For me, I would say building relationships because I feel that copywriting and lunch copywriting at the end of the day is having a conversation with people that you’re trying to reach out.

And I feel both in both of the cases, actually, the relationship, that connection is a key. So I would say that. So thank you so much for this. This has been so much fun. How people that want to learn more about the work that you do and how you help people can find more about you or connect with you?

Gosh. Yes. Well, you can find me at cheeky copy dot co. Somebody has calm, and that bums me out. But, @cheekycopy.co, I am on Instagram.

I will see DMs, though, typically, I just have the nine grid going, but I will see it. I’m not as active over there, but we can definitely chitchat in on that space. I’m also on LinkedIn that I’m more active over there. And I do have a substack that I wish I had the if you put in cheeky copy, I should come up. Yeah.

So we can I can add it to the to the link, so no worries? People can go and check. I should have it together a little bit more when it comes to that. It’s okay. It’s perfect, Kipa.

So yeah. So thank you again. Thank you so much for this. I feel like we might have so many different roles to take this conversation, and this was one of them. So but, yeah, I really appreciate your time and and opening up about your insights here with us.

Well, thank you. It was super fun. I really appreciate being here. Thank you. For everyone watching, if they have any comment, any thoughts about what we just shared, feel free to comment.

Yeah. Other than that, see you next time. Bye.