Personal Brand Story and People Pleasing,
with Reme Mancera and Kim Gross

 Hello, welcome to Intersection Chats. I am Reme Mancera. I am a personal brand story strategist. I am delighted to have here my guest today, which is Kim. Hello Kim. Hi Reme. How are you? Good. Please, uh, tell us what you do and what is your expertise. So I’m Kim Gross, and I help people pleasers and perfectionists to unmask and unhook from their patterns of people pleasing and perfectionism.

But there’s so many other masks that end up being at play as well. And I have a podcast masks off. Four people pleasers and perfectionists. And I wrote a book just, I’m coming up on almost a year already. I can’t believe it’s been that long. So my book is free to be a Pathway to Inner Liberation. So you can see the connection between my podcast taking off your masks, unhooking from the patterns, and then how that translates into.

Being free to be your true self free, and it’s a pathway to inner liberation. So it’s all connected. And um, I’m currently working on creating my first digital course, so that should be ready shortly, soon. And that’s based on my book, free to Be. And it’s also based on my five step power pathway. So that’s a framework that I’ve created.

To help one go from those people pleasing perfectionistic patterns to having more freedom to be their true selves, and then to learn the steps, the five steps on how to get from A to B, or as I like to say, I always say, go from a. Mental prison, I was, now I, I stipulate prison because some people think, oh, what is she talking about?

I’m not in prison. I don’t mean literal prison. A mental prison. So from that prison to paradise, which is the freedom, the peace, the joy, the abundance, the fulfilling relationships, the confidence, all of that is what’s available. When you do the work to unhook from those patterns that keep you stuck in this miserable place where you’re not having the life that you desire.

Hmm. Thank you. So in today’s conversation, we are going to be. Talking about how we’re our topics intersect, and especially I am interesting to learn about your experience with, uh, helping people in people pleasing, especially related to business and of course related to personal brand story and storytelling in general.

So what has been your experience with, uh, working with people that they want to, um, address the people pleasing in them? Like, especially around businesses and around storytelling. Personal brand story. So I mean, again, we’re talking, we said people pleasing, but there’s perfectionism as well. So I really have to tie that one in because I think that both are at play when it comes to having limitations when it comes to.

Business, but really business in any part of life. Right. Just showing up as a person, as a mom, if you have kids or as a wife, as a daughter, as a friend. There’s especially the perfectionist. The perfectionist will always. I don’t wanna say always, oftentimes, most of the time have this imposter syndrome. Hmm.

Right. So what is imposter syndrome? Imposter syndrome is this belief that, who am I to think that I’m good enough? To blah, blah, blah. Who am I to think that I’m good enough to have, you know, a popular podcast or to have Mel Robbins on my podcast? Who am I to think that I could make six figures? Who am I to think that I can leave my nine to five job and go and become an entrepreneur or to go and have the.

Job of my dreams rather than working at this job that is so unfulfilling, so there’s this imposter syndrome, I’m not good enough. That’s the underlying fear that not just women, but anyone in any job or any profession, if they have this pattern, if this pattern is prominent, they’re gonna struggle to have success.

They’re gonna struggle to ha see the outcomes that they wanna see, because there’s this underlying belief that was most likely established way back in childhood when they created this subconscious belief that I’m not good enough. It could have been in school with grades. Maybe I’m not smart enough. You know, Brene Brown talks about the The gremlins, right?

The shame gremlins. So we get these shame gremlins like. I’m not smart enough. I’m not capable enough. I’m not thin enough, I’m not pretty enough. I’m not this enough, right? All of those limiting self-doubting beliefs, that’s what it comes down to. Self-doubt. Self-doubt is the culprit of what keeps us and others from having the outcomes that they want in business.

So if someone has been in bus and, and listen, I’m gonna be a thousand percent honest. I’m going to be a thousand percent honest with the listeners is that I have been there and can still be there because sometimes I don’t always have the outcome or growth that I wanna see in my podcast. Like I’ll say to myself, oh my God, I just like, I just created an amazing episode with such great content.

And then I’ll go and look and the views or the plays are so low, it’s like, what the heck? You know what I mean? And so then I start to doubt myself, well, am I not good enough? People don’t wanna hear what I have to say. People don’t like what I have to say. It’s like, should I stop doing it? And then seeing goes with my book sales.

Like I’ve had to do a lot of coaching even on myself to. Recognize the pattern of the imposter syndrome, the self-doubt. Well, where is the self-doubt coming from? What’s underneath the self-doubt? The UN underneath? Underneath is, there’s a fear of a couple of things. One, I’m just not good enough and two people won’t like me.

And both of those are people pleasing and perfectionistic tendencies. Right? And we keep saying people pleasing perfectionism like their masks, their patterns. But really what does that, what does that really mean? What underlies that? What’s driving a person to have perfectionistic or people pleasing tendencies?

And at the end of the day, what it comes down to almost every single time is fear. It’s fear that drives the bus. And so if we’re not having the success in our business, if we’re not having the outcomes in our business, if we’re not showing up with confidence in emoting the energy that. What I have to offer is valuable to someone.

It’s because we have fear that we’re not good enough. And, and so the only way to combat that, to overcome that is to do the work. You have to go back and, and work with that pattern and heal it. And that’s where my five step power pathway comes in. It’s a framework that I use and teach to help others. To really deal with that fear and heal it and overcome it and, and, you know, and to really integrate the parts of ourselves that have been so afraid because that’s, these little parts of ourselves from childhood are still in us today and they’re still driving the bus.

So I have to like tell my little inner controller, like, you can go take a back seat. I’ll drive now. It’s okay. ’cause that’s the part of me that. Is saying, oh my God, nobody likes my podcast. Why doesn’t anyone like my podcast? What’s wrong with me? You know, that’s the people pleaser part. So that’s what I would say in terms of whether it honestly, Reme, whether it’s someone in business, whether it’s some in your relationships, whether it’s in your personal life.

At the end of the day, it’s all the same. We just don’t believe or feel that we can be our true selves and we don’t have the confidence. Yeah, and I can see when I work with clients as well, it is like this idea of, okay, who will care about my story? I don’t have an epic story to share how that will be relevant for my audience.

And that’s really connected to this self-doubt, like not having clarity and not being. Like confident to share your story and why? To share it. Um, in, in the, specifically in the personal brand story, which is what I work, but in general, in business and in general in, in, in a person’s life. And, and I see that tendencies good in myself, so it’s something that I can.

Totally relate because I, I have the same feelings. And then it’s like, okay, go back to why you are doing this. What is the reason? And if it’s impacting one person, still valuable, it still makes sense, but you have all these thoughts and, and, and ideas going around. Yeah. So, so totally relate. And just to go back and touch on the personal brand story piece a little bit.

So you and I worked together, what, a little over a year ago where you were helping me and at the time I was thinking to myself, I don’t really have like that many stories to tell. And just like you said, who wants to hear about me boxing, you know, at, in my fifties, or who wants to hear that I like rap music and like, I never even thought that those would be stories worth telling.

Worth sharing because I believed or had this belief, this story in my own head of no one’s gonna wanna hear that. Like no one cares. And that belief, that narrative that I kept telling myself is one that I started saying in my childhood, because as a little girl, there were so many times when I felt invisible in the classroom, even let’s say in the classroom.

I was quiet, I was shy. I sat in the background, especially before the age of 10, before I started doing my performing, perfecting and pleasing. I was really quiet. The teacher didn’t call on me, so I felt invisible. Like no one cares about me. No one cares to want to know me. Like what I have to say or share is inside of me is not important.

Right. So that’s. When that narrative started. So if it goes left unchecked and the pain of that stays stored in our bodies, which it does if we don’t ever heal it, or we don’t ever like metabolize that energy, those, that pain, uh, of course it’s gonna still be with us in our thirties, forties, fifties, and beyond.

Because it stays stored in our nervous system. So until we address it, we’re gonna still keep playing out that pattern in our adult lives in every area of our lives. So going back to what you were saying about the personal brand, all of a sudden you started pulling outta me all of these stories that I had to tell and I’m like, after a while I’m like.

Dang. I do have like a lot of stories to tell, you know, and it is kind of cool that like I met Migos when I was 50, and you know what? I am a badass because I’m still now 57 and I’m still boxing. So, and maybe not everyone cares, but some people might relate to it. So it’s like, it’s really important to connect.

Yeah, and then it’s like having the clarity of why you are sharing specific story. I feel that to me, that’s what makes sense because it’s like I know exactly why I sharing that specific, uh, story and how it’s related to what I do and what I offer in my business and with my audience. So. I feel that that’s why I, I put together this framework in this way because I feel that’s, uh, a way to help my audience, my clients like you.

Like, okay, now it makes sense that I’m sharing this, this piece of my story, how that’s connected to the work that I do with my, my own clients. So for you sharing that part of your story, you know exactly. Okay. I am sharing this. People, it’s important for people to understand that way that I am, uh, why this work is important to me, how it’s relevant in my own life and all that.

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I wanna say this to you, like, I wanna give you some credit and prompts because, because of that work that we did together that January and. Outlined for me how my stories, my different stories, connect to what I teach and what I help others with. Almost all of those stories became a part of the book, and that was like almost like an outline for the book.

So you were really like, I didn’t even know it. Then when we did our work together that the book was going to be fully born. I think I might have mentioned it to you, but I don’t know if it really was in fruition yet. So it’s so cool how all of those stories did connect to a particular teaching, a particular lesson.

That I was teaching and how those stories, those experiences in my life are my brand. It is my right, like masks off for people, pleasers and perfectionists are working. All of that is my life. It was my life’s story, my life’s journey that has become my life’s work or my purpose work. So definitely they connect.

Yeah. And I remember, uh, when we start, when we were going to start working, you telling me about, yeah, I have my podcast, I have my coaching. I, I, I think you were like, I have the idea of writing a book and how everything will connect, and it was like, of course it’s connected because it’s what is important to you.

But it’s like at some point, and I, it happens to me too, at some point you are like, how I connect this in my messaging, how I talk about this. Of course everything is connected because it’s important to me. I am trying to help a certain group of people, but how everything is interconnected and how I can share and talk about eating a way that is.

Makes sense and, and it’s clear, uh, again, I feel like when you have that clarity is, um, going to help you to, to address that self-doubt. And I’m having more confident because you have the clarity of, okay, there is a, an intention here, there is an strategy here. I know why I am doing this in this certain way.

And it’s starting by you because again, what you said, like the inner stories that we tell ourself, that’s the first to cover. That that’s the first to cover. And you know, the thing is, um, like I said, even still to this day, I still am kind of like working with that and uncovering those beliefs, those narratives.

But here’s the difference compared to even like three years ago, is that I’m so aware of them now. Like it’s very quick that it comes to my awareness and I’m like, oh, okay, that’s what I’m doing. And then it’s like, quick go in and, you know, do something to. Use my framework on myself and then it’s like, okay, I just need to kind of like heal this other layer of this self-doubt.

There’s a little bit left of the self-doubt or the lack of clarity, but you’re so right about the clarity piece too. And I’ll just address that, um, if it’s okay. Is. When we did that work together, it was starting to become clear. Like after, you know, you helped me draw the connections between my story and you did even like the Venn diagrams for me with the story connectors and started to see how it all connected with my brand.

But, and even since then, like a seed was planted at the time. But even since then, the book came into fruition. Now the digital course is coming into fruition. But more importantly, when I’m doing videos now, I’m so, I have so much more clarity. And when you have that clarity and you know what the message is that you want to deliver, and then it’s just a matter of finding a story that connects with it and one of the thing.

So that’s beautiful in and of itself. ’cause that helps with the confidence, that helps with clarity when I can see how they connect with each other. But the other thing I’ve been able to uncover for myself that’s always been there, but I just wasn’t seeing it so clearly, is that one of my superpowers is share is sharing vulnerably in my book, in my podcast, whenever I show up, I show up so vulnerably and honestly that.

I think it helps to connect with the audience when I’m being real and saying like, okay, I’m not perfect by any means, and I’ll share my stories and then that’s the p. That’s when I, that’s the vulnerable part, is I then draw on a story or I draw upon a real experience that I had or have or am having, and I connect it to my message and then people are like, wow, wow.

Okay. I get that and I get. Like, I feel because she’s so vulnerable, I can connect, I can relate to her even more. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And also the trust building, because that’s like a point of connection with the other person, like, okay. She’s vulnerable. Uh, she has been real here. So it is like, okay, I feel like this is a safe space for me to talk about my own vulnerability.

Yeah. Because I, I know that when I, I am around your content, your podcast, your book is like, okay, I can see how you are open to that. So that’s also like allowing me and giving me permission. If I am your client to be like, okay, I see how there is a safe space here. I can, I can meet that and something that I want to touch on, this is also about the practicing, like how you get confidence.

Also by doing it again and again and how I, I am, I ha, we haven’t talked about this, but how every time that you share one of those story connectors, you are getting more confident in doing it again. And maybe you even discover little angles that you didn’t see and how people react to that. All of that is like giving a lot of nuance that you can address and it’s basically practice and practice.

How has been your experience on that? Um, well for sure. I a hundred percent agree because, okay, so even the book was just like a year ago. Let me back up and say, the podcast started five and a half years ago. Wow. And I can remember back then having like such a pit in my stomach anytime I shared a story, because I would think to myself, whoa.

What if this person hears it, or what if this old friend from high school hears what I said, or a family member, like, what are they going to think and say? So I was so nervous to be so honest and real, but again, I just showed up every week, week after week, and I just kept coaching myself and I just kept working on, on me on healing myself so that I could have more confidence.

And then I was taken to. Another up level when I wrote the book, because my book is based off of 21 years worth of my journals, so how much more intimate can that be than sharing my journals in my book? So then it was like when the book finally. Was published, there’s, you know, again like, oh my, the imposter syndrome.

It really came in like, what am I doing? Like, Kim, what are you doing, sharing yourself so v vulnerably with the world and being so like naked, and it just, I kept hearing this quiet little voice inside me that just kept saying, it’s okay. You have to do this. Like it’s gonna help people and you have to. So the more that I lean into that and the more that I share my stories and share vulnerably it, it does get easier because practice does make perfect.

And I’m not gonna say that there aren’t still sometimes when I get that little uncomfortable feeling. But I’ll say for myself, one of the things that I think does drive me is that. Um, growth is one of my core values, whether it’s personal, like just growth, right? Personal growth is a core value, so every time I feel that uncomfortable feeling of sharing myself vulnerably, I really know now that it’s just an opportunity to up level and to just grow even more, to evolve even more.

And now I can really look back over my life and see how true that is. That by pushing through the fear. And again, see, there’s that fear, and that’s what a perfectionist will often struggle with because there’s the fear of failing. There’s the fear of making mistakes, there’s the fear of looking ridiculous.

There’s the fear of being embarrassed. So they’re often afraid to step outside their comfort zones, play safe, stay small, because then you know it’ll be easier. But at the end of the day, when you play safe. And you stay small. Your soul is dying. You know, you’re not being your true self. You’re just, you’re, you’re shrinking like into nothing and you can’t experience that.

Abundance, that ex, that expansiveness, that joy that comes from being able to show up in the world as your true self, not as someone who is playing small, not as someone who wants to stay safe. Now, is it perfect for me? No. Am I there all the time? No. But where I have come, how far I’ve come is so far from where I used to be when I used to play small all the time.

So. All to back to your original question about the practice and cultivating that practice, the more you practice it, the more you do it. And I’m telling you, I, I work at it every day, 24 7, 365. The more that you do it, the more free you become, the more freedom you have. Um, yeah. So before. Anything else?

Congrats on a podcast of more than, uh, over five years. That’s a thank you. A huge milestone. So congrats. Thank you. Um, and then. Yeah, connecting to what you just said about being true to yourself. Mm-hmm. I feel a lot when I work with, uh, people around their personal brand story, um, and it in general, when you are the face of your brand and you are like the personal brand in the sense of, okay, your bus, you are, the face of your business is like you, people tend to, and I have done that as well.

Like we tend to have an idea of what is the. What is the perception that we want others to have and how we need to perform ourselves to feed that perception, um, to position ourselves in a certain way. And I feel that’s a hundred percent related to the topic of your podcast mask and all the work that you do because of course.

We don’t need to protect, we don’t need to pretend to be someone else. We just need to be our authentic side. But that’s also a, a path of learning about that and realizing that, okay. As much as I can be myself better, because it’s like, okay, you get what you get. It’s like it’s me. It is like, I don’t, I am not pretending this is what you get, but it’s like at the beginning you feel like you, you need to perform in a certain way.

And it is like what is professional and what is not and and how you share your story and. Then the, the, the pressure of being vulnerable just because people are telling you to be vulnerable when you are not ready for doing not all of that is like, okay. There is so much, um, learning and, and self-knowledge in that process of, okay, I know that I, I, I don’t need to pretend to be someone else.

I need to be as much me as I can. But it’s not something that, from the beginning you will act like that. It’s something that, again, practicing and, and getting met and getting help in, in and uncovering those thing, but uh, yeah, it’s like. Yeah. Pretending to be someone else on the mask, I feel that’s so connected.

Yeah. And I just wanna say, I wanna add a little caveat to what you were saying because, and it’s really important you said, if a person isn’t ready to be vulnerable, if a person isn’t ready to be truly authentic, and if you push yourself before you’re ready, you’re just retraumatizing yourself. You’re just, it’s, it’s causing trauma and, and it’s gonna keep you more stuck and it’s gonna take even longer to unhook from that pattern.

It’s gonna take longer to get to where you wanna get to. So. If you’re not ready, don’t force yourself, because then that’s not being true either, right? So that’s one thing. The other thing you talked about, yeah, there is a certain amount of professionalism that is needed whenever you’re the face of a business or your brand.

If you’re out there, of course, like. Being professional is certainly one thing, but the other part is where you’re saying, where you’re almost a little performative, and I know what you’re talking about because I can tell the difference when I’ve done a podcast where I’ve been just kind of like really in my body, fully present, fully just relaxed and chill, and just recorded.

And I was really just being authentic versus like, let’s say I had a guest on that was, and I did, I had this one guest that was pretty big name and she was reputable and she was, um, I don’t know if she had her doctor, but she was a psychologist and she had all these years of experience and you know, she wrote a book, she had a TED talk and I could.

Feel myself, like, get into this place of, Ooh, I’ve gotta like come up to her level and like kind. I put on the perfection mask. I put on the performative mask and I was like, oh, Kim. Like, eh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. You know, it’s, but I can laugh at myself now. But it’s again, what was I doing? I was protecting myself when we put on a mask.

Let me just say this. And when we put our masks on, or we’re playing out our patterns, we are protecting ourselves. What was I protecting myself from in that interview? Well, my, again, my narrative was, I don’t wanna look stupid. I don’t wanna seem like I don’t know what I’m talking about. I don’t wanna be an imposter.

I don’t wanna fail. What if I can’t think of anything to ask her? What if I don’t have anything to say? What if she doesn’t like what I’m asking her? What if I make her angry? What if no one likes this? See all these? What if things that are going on in my mind are all fear-based? They’re all rooted in fear that somehow I am not good enough to have a conversation with her.

Hmm. And that’s why the mask came on, and that’s why we do it because we’re trying to protect ourselves. So I had to like overcompensate and puff up and all these crazy things. So, and then the other thing I’ll say to your question is that sometimes some people, or many times people are unaware mm-hmm.

When they’re wearing a mask. Or they’re unaware when they’re playing out the pattern because they’ve been doing it for so long that it feels familiar, so familiar that they think it’s just a part of who they are. They think it’s part of their personality to be that way, to, you know, show up as like not their true selves.

They have forgotten who their true selves are, or even how to be their true selves. So it’s like even unavailable, unaware for them. And so sometimes they just need that like, you know, little shaking or knock on the door for someone to like help them understand that they’re playing out a pattern, they’re putting on a mask, and again, that’s why they’re not getting the outcome that they want because they’re not being their true selves.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that you bring that aspect of the how is some We are. Trying to protect ourself. And it’s like, there is a lot because of course I, I work a lot with people that they want to grow their visibility opportunities and then perform. And in the sense of, okay, whenever I, I go and have an opportunity of visibility, how I share my story in a way that makes.

Says that attract the right audience and they understand what they do and all that. So it’s based on that they want to, to do it in a, in a way that is effective for their business as well. And there is this idea of, okay, but then you are kind of. Afraid of visibility or you are like not doing the steps to get the visibility that you are looking for in a way.

And of course it’s, it’s like, because it’s, it can be scary that we are putting ourself out there and showing up, but then there is all the part that are like all these internal narratives and it is like of, of course we try to protect ourselves in a way. So I, I feel that there is these connections well related to visibility especially.

And just to add one thing to what you just said. And then when that happens, then we start to procrastinate. We start to come up with all these excuses and we keep putting off what we have to do in order to become more visible, to have our business grow. We say, oh, I just want my business to grow. I just want, you know, to have, I wanna make this much money.

I wanna have this many clients or this much this. But then when we don’t have it, we’re like, oh, well why? Why am I not getting the outcome that I want from my business? Okay, well, how much do you procrastinate? How many excuses are you making? You know, how much are you putting off? Like. All of the things.

And that’s not to be mean when I say that it’s, it’s just these are ways that we kind of cope with the fear that we have around it. And sometimes we’re not even, again, I go back to that awareness and that’s why awareness is the very first step of my five step power pathway. Because if we aren’t aware of what we’re doing, we won’t change anything.

Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So before we wrap up, um, yeah, there is any message or anything that we haven’t covered, but do you think that you think is important to share? I think that we covered so much. Uh, you know, and I guess maybe I’ll just kind of highlight and come back to the last thing that I just said.

I said so many different valuable things. But again, if we’re maybe thinking about someone who’s listening to this and they’re. Realizing that they’re not getting the outcomes that they want in business, in relationships, in their personal lives, and, and they’re just like frustrated, like, you know, I wanna lose weight.

I can’t lose weight. I wanna be a better mom. Or, I don’t have good friendships. Or I just, you know, I sit around the house too much, or My business isn’t growing, I’m not making enough money. I could, if they’re having all of that going on, and they’re like, why, why, why? Why isn’t my life? Changing. Why can’t I create what I wanna create in my life?

The very first thing that is important is awareness, is being aware of what is keeping you stuck. Like these subconscious beliefs, patterns, masks, they’re all interchangeable. They’re all driving the bus. They’re driving the bus. I’m gonna, I’m gonna venture out and say maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. I think it’s like 90% of the time that would be the case.

So again, you can’t make any changes in your life and create the life that you desire until you become aware of what the issues are, and then you can start to own it, and then you can start to make the changes. Yeah. And, and of course there are circumstances that are external to us, and yes, make, make a, a weight in, in what we can achieve or not, but there are certain aspects that are depending on us.

That part is what we can work on. Yes. And what we can cover. So I I, I like that approach of, okay, let’s be aware of what is happening with the part that I can control that is like how I react to things, how I, I try to do things in a certain way. And then of course the external things I can. Try to get help and, and, and be aware of the circumstances.

But yes, having that awareness of myself and how I react and how I behave, I think is really, really valuable. And I, I’ve really come to live by that. It’s been a hard, hard lesson and journey for me to live by it. And it’s, it’s also like part of the Serenity Prayer, which is. Just like God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change or control, so I can’t change or control people, places and things.

And then the, the prayer goes on to say, give me the courage to change the things I can. What can I change? What can I control? Just me. That’s the only thing I have control over is me. My thoughts, my, my feelings, my perspectives, the way I show up my responses, and then the wisdom to know the difference. Hmm.

And so it’s like, it’s so true to live by that we can only control what is within our control. There will always be people, places, and things, or extenuating circumstances that are beyond our control, or we might, like you said, need to get assistance with. But listen, there’s enough to do. And just controlling ourselves so we don’t worry about everybody else.

There’s so much right here that we can work on. Yeah, especially the inner narrative. I believe that that’s one big key thing to like go the stories because I work around stories. So, but it’s like, that’s the stories that we tell others that that’s, those are important, but the stories that we tell ourselves ourselves, that’s huge.

Uh, so, so yeah, the inner narratives. So, yeah, just la Uh, one last question is like, how would you summarize the connection between people pleasing and personal brand story, how you will use 1, 2, 3 words to summarize that? Um, I, I would say like if the words that I would use would be true liberation, right?

So if you want to have freedom, true liberation. Again, it’s about being aware of the people pleasing and then being able to unhook from the patterns of people pleasing or perfectionism to have true liberation. That’s where I, I would say the connection comes from. Hmm. Beautiful. For me, I would say self-confidence.

Mm-hmm. Because when you have clarity on the narratives, like the ones that you want to share with others, and then you are aware of your people pleasing tendencies, that point of connection, I feel like it’s providing more self-confidence when you have covered both of the sides. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

Uh, it’s just, it’s such amazing work. So thank you so much for accepting the invitation to have a chat around this, uh, intersection. And for people that are watching, they have around us, like in the description, the links, and I invite them if. They have any question or any comment around what we have shared or if they are curious about your podcast, about your book, or about the services that you provide?

Um, the links are, are on there. And feel free to reach any of us. Thank you so much. It was so good to see you again, Reme. I enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you everyone. Bye. bye-Bye.